2008 美国总统竞选第一场辩论中英文对照

punkxxx

作者是猫眼上的一个ID，收集帖子的时候把他ID给忘了，汗！把全文扒到自己论坛上，方便转载。另外作者是看着辩论录象编译的，翻译不一定精确，各位不要期望过高，全部内容大约近50个回复帖，现在开始帖！

LEHRER: Good evening from the Ford Center for the Performing Arts at the University of Mississippi in Oxford. I'm Jim Lehrer of the NewsHour on PBS, and I welcome you to the first of the 2008 presidential debates between the Republican nominee, Senator John McCain of Arizona, and the Democratic nominee, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois.

主持人：晚上好，这里是牛津密西西比大学的表演艺术中心。我是来自公共广播公司《新闻时间》的吉姆.拉勒尔。我欢迎你们来到2008年首场总统竞选辩论。两位总统候选人是来自亚利桑那州的共和党提名人——议员约翰.麦凯恩，和来自伊利诺斯州的民主党提名人——议员贝拉克.奥巴马。

(注：牛津，密西西比南部一城市，位于田纳西州孟斐斯东南偏南。是密西西比大学的所在地（老密西），建于1844年，它是威廉姆·福克纳的家乡。人口9,882)

The Commission on Presidential Debates is the sponsor of this event and the three other presidential and vice presidential debates coming in October.

总统竞选辩论委员会是这次辩论以及即将在10月份的另外三次总统竞选辩论和副总统竞选辩论的主办者。

Tonight's will primarily be about foreign policy and national security, which, by definition, includes the global financial crisis. It will be divided roughly into nine-minute segments.

今晚的话题将主要围绕外交政策和国家安全。其中，国家安全包括了这次全球金融危机。我们将大概以9分钟为一段（辩论）。

Direct exchanges between the candidates and moderator follow-ups are permitted after each candidate has two minutes to answer the lead question in an order determined by a coin toss.

我们将用掷硬币的办法来决定谁先回答引导问题。在两位候选人分别回答完后，可以进行直接交流。主持人也可以进一步追问。

The specific subjects and questions were chosen by me. They have not been shared or cleared with anyone.

具体的主题和问题都由我决定。它们从未被（我）向任何人披露或解释。

The audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent, no cheers, no applause, no noise of any kind, except right now, as we welcome Senators Obama and McCain.

大厅中的观众都已经承诺保持沉默，即不欢呼，不鼓掌，不发出任何形式的噪音。除了现在——让我们欢迎议员奥巴马和麦凯恩。

(APPLAUSE)
（鼓掌）

Let me begin with something General Eisenhower said in his 1952 presidential campaign. Quote, "We must achieve both security and solvency. In fact, the foundation of military strength is economic strength," end quote.

让我以艾森豪威尔将军在1952年总统竞选时说过的一句话开始：“我们必须获得安全和财务偿还能力。事实上，军事实力的基础就是经济实力。”

With that in mind, the first lead question.

在脑中记住这个，让我们开始第一个引导问题。

Gentlemen, at this very moment tonight, where do you stand on the financial recovery plan?

先生们，在今晚这个特别的时刻，你们在金融拯救计划中站在哪里？

First response to you, Senator Obama. You have two minutes.

第一个回答问题的是你，议员奥巴马。你有两分钟时间。

OBAMA: Well, thank you very much, Jim, and thanks to the commission and the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss, for hosting us tonight. I can't think of a more important time for us to talk about the future of the country.

奥巴马：好的，非常感谢你，吉姆，也感谢（总统竞选辩论）委员会，感谢密西西比大学今晚容纳我们。我无法想象我们还有比今晚讨论这个国家的未来的更重要的时刻了。

You know, we are at a defining moment in our history. Our nation is involved in two wars, and we are going through the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

你们知道，我们现在正处于我们历史上的一个决定性时刻。我们的民族被涉入两场战争（注：伊拉克战争和阿富汗战争），而我们正在经历自经济大萧条（注：1929年）以来最糟糕的金融危机。

And although we've heard a lot about Wall Street, those of you on Main Street I think have been struggling for a while, and you recognize that this could have an impact on all sectors of the economy.

尽管我们听说了相当多关于华尔街的事情，但你们那些在城镇主街上的人们（注：这里指美国城镇和乡村的典型居民）已经在（艰难地）努力了一段时间。你们都知道这（金融危机）也许会影响到经济的方方面面。

And you're wondering, how's it going to affect me? How's it going to affect my job? How's it going to affect my house? How's it going to affect my retirement savings or my ability to send my children to college?

你们想要知道，它（金融危机）如何影响到我？如何影响到我的工作？如何影响到我的住宅？如何影响到我的退休金储蓄或者是送我孩子上大学的能力？

So we have to move swiftly, and we have to move wisely. And I've put forward a series of proposals that make sure that we protect taxpayers as we engage in this important rescue effort.

所以我们必须得即刻就行动了，而且我们得要明智地行动。我已经提出一系列的建议，以确保当我们从事这项重要的（金融）拯救行动时，纳税人（的权益）得到保护。

Number one, we've got to make sure that we've got oversight over this whole process; $700 billion, potentially, is a lot of money.

首先，我们必须确保整个过程有仔细的监督。可能（被国会通过）的7000亿美元是一笔相当大的数额。

Number two, we've got to make sure that taxpayers, when they are putting their money at risk, have the possibility of getting that money back and gains, if the market -- and when the market returns.

第二，我们必须确保纳税人现在冒着风险投入的钱有可能拿回来并增加，只要市场——且当市场回复（正常）时。

Number three, we've got to make sure that none of that money is going to pad CEO bank accounts or to promote golden parachutes.

第三，我们必须确保（这些钱）一分钱也不能变成CEO的银行账户或者成为黄金保护伞（注：企业的高级管理层或离任的政府官员在失去他们原来的工作后，在经济上给予其丰厚保障的安排）。

And, number four, we've got to make sure that we're helping homeowners, because the root problem here has to do with the foreclosures that are taking place all across the country.

第四，我们必须确保我们正在帮助住宅所有者，因为问题的根源与在这个国家到处都在发生的无力偿付房贷有关。

Now, we also have to recognize that this is a final verdict on eight years of failed economic policies promoted by George Bush, supported by Senator McCain, a theory that basically says that we can shred regulations and consumer protections and give more and more to the most, and somehow prosperity will trickle down.

现在，我们也必须承认这（金融危机）就是对议员麦凯恩所支持的乔治.布什这八年来失败的经济政策的最终裁决。（他们的）一个理论主要宣称的是我们可以撕碎（市场）管理和消费者保护，只要给予越来越多的（自由）直到极致，然后繁荣昌盛就会从天上掉下来。

It hasn't worked. And I think that the fundamentals of the economy have to be measured by whether or not the middle class is getting a fair shake. That's why I'm running for president, and that's what I hope we're going to be talking about tonight.

（他们的）理论根本没有起过作用。而我认为经济的基础应该以中产阶级是否能进行公平交易作为衡量标准。这就是为什么我在竞选总统，这也是我所希望今晚我们将所讨论的。

[ Last edited by punkxxx on 2008-10-23 21:21 ]

punkxxx

LEHRER: Senator McCain, two minutes.

主持人：麦凯恩议员，两分钟。

MCCAIN: Well, thank you, Jim. And thanks to everybody.

麦凯恩：好的，谢谢你，吉姆。谢谢所有人。

And I do have a sad note tonight. Senator Kennedy is in the hospital. He's a dear and beloved friend to all of us. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the lion of the Senate.

今晚我还有一个令人遗憾的消息：肯尼迪议员住院了。他是我们最亲爱的一个朋友。让我们向议会的雄狮表达挂念和祈祷。

I also want to thank the University of Mississippi for hosting us tonight.

我也要感谢今晚容纳我们的密西西比大学。

And, Jim, I -- I've been not feeling too great about a lot of things lately. So have a lot of Americans who are facing challenges. But I'm feeling a little better tonight, and I'll tell you why.

而吉姆，我——我近来一直对很多事情感到不满。许多面临困难的美国人们也和我一样。然而今晚我感觉稍微好些了，我会告诉你为什么。

Because as we're here tonight in this debate, we are seeing, for the first time in a long time, Republicans and Democrats together, sitting down, trying to work out a solution to this fiscal crisis that we're in.

这是因为我们在今晚这场辩论上，我们看到，这是相当长一段时间以来第一次共和党人和民主党人坐下来，尝试作出一个我们所面临的金融危机的解决方案。

（注：我认为麦凯恩此言，意在抨击民主党人的“不合作”。当然，这个“不合作”是由他所定义的。）

And have no doubt about the magnitude of this crisis. And we're not talking about failure of institutions on Wall Street. We're talking about failures on Main Street, and people who will lose their jobs, and their credits, and their homes, if we don't fix the greatest fiscal crisis, probably in -- certainly in our time, and I've been around a little while.

我们毫不怀疑这次危机的危害性。我们现在不是在讨论华尔街那些机构的破产，我们是在讨论城镇主街上（那些人）的破产。如果我们不解决掉这次重大的财政危机，也许——不，毫无疑问地，在我们的有生之年，人们将失去他们的工作，他们的银行存款和他们的家。（笑）我已经伴随（金融危机）一段时间了。

But the point is -- the point is, we have finally seen Republicans and Democrats sitting down and negotiating together and coming up with a package.

但重点是——重点是，我们终于看到了，共和党人和民主党人坐下来一起磋商并将提出一系列方案（注：由于找不到中文对应于package的这个意思，只好用一系列方案来代替了）。

This package has transparency in it. It has to have accountability and oversight. It has to have options for loans to failing businesses, rather than the government taking over those loans. We have to -- it has to have a package with a number of other essential elements to it.

这些方案应该有透明性。它们应该可以落实责任和监管。它们应该包括转让衰退中的生意的债权，而不是让政府直接接管这些债权。我们必须——不，这些方案还应当包括许多其他的必需元素。

And, yes, I went back to Washington, and I met with my Republicans in the House of Representatives. And they weren't part of the negotiations, and I understand that. And it was the House Republicans that decided that they would be part of the solution to this problem.

还有，我回了一趟华盛顿，并会见了众议院的共和党议员们。他们并没有参与磋商，我理解。是共和党议会决定，他们也将是解决这次（金融危机）问题的一部分。

But I want to emphasize one point to all Americans tonight. This isn't the beginning of the end of this crisis. This is the end of the beginning, if we come out with a package that will keep these institutions stable.

但今晚我想对所有的美国人强调一点。现在不是金融危机尾声的序幕。即使我们拿出一系列解决方案使得那些（金融）机构稳定，现在也只是金融危机序幕的尾声。

And we've got a lot of work to do. And we've got to create jobs. And one of the areas, of course, is to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.

我们还有很多事情要做。我们得创造就业岗位。而创造就业岗位中一件（要做的）事情就是消除我们对外国石油的依赖。

（注：个人以为麦凯恩在最后几句话里渲染金融危机的严重性，然后稍微透露一点“宏图和前景”，企图加强美国人对他的依赖感。很古老的招数，但政客们都在用。）

punkxxx

LEHRER: All right, let's go back to my question. How do you all stand on the recovery plan? And talk to each other about it. We've got five minutes. We can negotiate a deal right here.

主持人：好的，让我们回到我的问题。你们两位在经济救援计划中站在哪边？直接告诉对方。我们还有5分钟。我们现在就可以在这里商讨出一个结果。

But, I mean, are you -- do you favor this plan, Senator Obama, and you, Senator McCain? Do you -- are you in favor of this plan?

我（先前的）意思是，你们支持这个（经济救援）计划吗？奥巴马议员，还有你，麦凯恩议员？你支持这个计划吗？

OBAMA: We haven't seen the language yet. And I do think that there's constructive work being done out there. So, for the viewers who are watching, I am optimistic about the capacity of us to come together with a plan.

奥巴马：我们还没有看到这个计划。我认为在（国会）正在进行一项建设性的工作。所以，我想对观众们说，我对我们一起提出一项计划的能力表示乐观。

（注：奥巴马这里回避了主持人的问题。他还是没有说他究竟是支持还是不支持。他的回答是一个non-answer，我们称为打太极、不表态。）

The question, I think, that we have to ask ourselves is, how did we get into this situation in the first place?

问题是，我在想，我们应该问问我们自己的是，我们是如何首次进入这种状况的？

Two years ago, I warned that, because of the subprime lending mess, because of the lax regulation, that we were potentially going to have a problem and tried to stop some of the abuses in mortgages that were taking place at the time.

两年前，我就警告过，由于次级贷款的混乱，由于松懈的管理，我们可能正在走向潜伏的问题。我还试图阻止一些当时抵押的滥用。

Last year, I wrote to the secretary of the Treasury to make sure that he understood the magnitude of this problem and to call on him to bring all the stakeholders together to try to deal with it.

去年，我写信给财政部长，以确信他意识到这个问题的严重性。我呼吁他召集投资人设法解决这个问题。

So -- so the question, I think, that we've got to ask ourselves is, yes, we've got to solve this problem short term. And we are going to have to intervene; there's no doubt about that.

所以，这个我们询问自己的问题，我认为，我们应该在短期内解决金融问题。我们需要干涉了，不容怀疑。

But we're also going to have to look at, how is it that we shredded so many regulations? We did not set up a 21st-century regulatory framework to deal with these problems. And that in part has to do with an economic philosophy that says that regulation is always bad.

但我们也需要看看，是什么让我们撕裂了那么多的（金融）管理？我们没有设立一个21世纪的管理框架来处理这些问题。而这（金融危机）部分地与一种经济理念有关。这种经济理念说（金融）管理总是坏的。

（注：奥巴马不但回避了问题，而且开始了强烈地对布什政府，以及支持布什政府的麦凯恩议员的抨击，认为他们的观念有问题。）

cnwelf

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punkxxx

LEHRER: Are you going to vote for the plan, Senator McCain?

主持人：你会支持（金融拯救）计划吗，麦凯恩议员？

MCCAIN: I -- I hope so. And I...

麦凯恩：我——我希望是，而且我……

LEHRER: As a United States senator...

主持人：作为一位美国的议员……

MCCAIN: Sure.

麦凯恩：当然。

LEHRER: ... you're going to vote for the plan?

主持人：……你是说你会投票支持这个计划？

MCCAIN: Sure. But -- but let me -- let me point out, I also warned about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and warned about corporate greed and excess, and CEO pay, and all that. A lot of us saw this train wreck coming.

麦凯恩：当然。但是——请让我——让我指出来，我同样也警告过了联邦抵押协会和联邦房贷抵押机构，警告过了（金融）企业的贪婪和无度，还有CEO的（高）薪水，所有这些。我们很多人都看到了这火车即将来临的失事。

（注：Fannie Mae = Federal National Mortgage Association, Freddie Mac = Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation)

But there's also the issue of responsibility. You've mentioned President Dwight David Eisenhower. President Eisenhower, on the night before the Normandy invasion, went into his room, and he wrote out two letters.

但这里同样要考虑责任的问题。你（主持人）提到了总统德怀特.大卫.艾森豪威尔。艾森豪威尔总统在进攻诺曼底的前夜，走进他的房间，写了两封信。

One of them was a letter congratulating the great members of the military and allies that had conducted and succeeded in the greatest invasion in history, still to this day, and forever.

其中一封信是庆祝部队和盟军中的杰出成员成功地完成了历史上最伟大的一次进攻，到现在，直到永远。

And he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy.

他还写了另一封信。那是一封向美国军方的辞职信。辞职的理由是诺曼底登陆的失败。

Somehow we've lost that accountability. I've been heavily criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. We've got to start also holding people accountable, and we've got to reward people who succeed.

不知何故，我们的责任没有落实。我一直饱受批评，因为我要求证券交易委员会的主席辞职。我们得让人们（为自己的工作）负责，并奖励那些（工作上）成功的人们。

But somehow in Washington today -- and I'm afraid on Wall Street -- greed is rewarded, excess is rewarded, and corruption -- or certainly failure to carry out our responsibility is rewarded.

然而，在今天的华盛顿——我恐怕华尔街也是，不知为何，贪婪得到奖励，无度得到奖励，而腐败，或者无疑地说失职得到奖励。

As president of the United States, people are going to be held accountable in my administration. And I promise you that that will happen.

（如果）我是美国总统，在我的管理下，人们将（为自己的工作）负责。我向你们保证那将实现。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Do you have something directly to say, Senator Obama, to Senator McCain about what he just said?

主持人：你有没有一些对麦凯恩议员刚才所说的话直接要说的，奥巴马议员？

OBAMA: Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.

奥巴马：嗯，我认为我们确实需要更多的责任（感），麦凯恩议员（在这点上）完全正确，但我们不应只在危机出现的时候才需要它（注：奥巴马此言，已经在影射麦凯恩及执政的共和党人在之前的不负责任，导致了现在的这场金融危机）。我指的是，在过去的数年时间里，占统治地位的经济思想总是考虑什么对华尔街有利，而不是什么对城镇大街（上的人们）有利。

And there are folks out there who've been struggling before this crisis took place. And that's why it's so important, as we solve this short-term problem, that we look at some of the underlying issues that have led to wages and incomes for ordinary Americans to go down, the -- a health care system that is broken, energy policies that are not working, because, you know, 10 days ago, John said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound.

而且，在（金融）危机发生之前，就有那么一些人在（辛苦地）挣扎了。这也是为什么我们在解决这个短期（金融）问题的时候，看看一些深层次的问题是如此重要。这些问题让普通美国人的工资和收入下降，让医疗系统破碎，让能源政策失效。因为……你知道，10天前，约翰（麦凯恩）还在说经济的根本还是健康的。

（注：奥巴马在这句话的最后提到“因为……”时，停顿了一下，他其实真正想说的是“就是像麦凯恩这样的共和党人导致了现在的金融问题”，但他需要仔细斟酌措辞，不能说得太过，以免被对手抓住把柄。麦凯恩其实也有苦衷，10天前他还没有意识到金融危机是如此迅速地展现在了所有人面前，他还以为那些华尔街的投资银行可以撑一段时间。也因为他还需要支撑住他背后的共和党，需要修饰共和党的执政能力。这使得他不得不硬着头皮说“经济根本还是健康的”。不料到了今天辩论的时候，几大投资银行相继破产或转行，他所说过的话也就成了奥巴马所攻击的把柄。这其实和某些人说“照片是真的”有异曲同工之妙。下面就看麦凯恩如何拆招了。）

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

主持人：直接向他（麦凯恩）说。

OBAMA: I do not think that they are.

奥巴马：我不认为经济的根本是健康的。

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

主持人：直接向他（麦凯恩）说。

OBAMA: Well, the -- John, 10 days ago, you said that the
fundamentals of the economy are sound. And...

奥巴马：好的，约翰，10天前，你还在说经济的根本还是健康的，而……

MCCAIN: Are you afraid I couldn't hear him?

麦凯恩：（笑对主持人）你担心我听不到他说话吗？

(LAUGHTER)
（笑声）

LEHRER: I'm just determined to get you all to talk to each
other. I'm going to try.

主持人：我只是想要让你们俩互相交流。我想试试（笑）。

OBAMA: The -- and I just fundamentally disagree. And unless we are holding ourselves accountable day in, day out, not just when there's a crisis for folks who have power and influence and can hire lobbyists, but for the nurse, the teacher, the police officer, who, frankly, at the end of each month, they've got a little financial crisis going on.

奥巴马：而我根本就不同意这点。除非我们不论什么时候都让我们（对我们的工作）负责，而不是在出现危机的时候。（这危机只是）让某些有权力和影响力的人可以雇佣说客（而已），而坦白地说，对于护士、教师、警员，每个月的月末，都有着金融危机在上演（注：这里指房贷）。

They're having to take out extra debt just to make their mortgage payments. We haven't been paying attention to them. And if you look at our tax policies, it's a classic example.

他们必须拿出额外的钱来偿还抵押贷款。我们一直没有注意到他们。但你们如果看看我们的税收政策，那就是一个典型的例子（注：指税收和房贷一样，都在抽取着普通美国人的收入）。

punkxxx

LEHRER: So, Senator McCain, do you agree with what Senator Obama just said? And, if you don't, tell him what you disagree with.

主持人：那么，麦凯恩议员，你同意奥巴马议员刚才所说的吗？如果你不同意，告诉他你不同意什么。

MCCAIN: No, I -- look, we've got to fix the system. We've got fundamental problems in the system. And Main Street is paying a penalty for the excesses and greed in Washington, D.C., and in the Wall Street.

麦凯恩：（我）不同意。我……你看，我们得修理（我们的金融）系统。这个系统的根本有些问题，而城镇大街（上的人们）正在为华盛顿和华尔街的无度和贪婪付出代价。

So there's no doubt that we have a long way to go. And, obviously, stricter interpretation and consolidation of the various regulatory agencies that weren't doing their job, that has brought on this crisis.

所以，毫不怀疑，我们有很长的路要走。而且，很明显地，对各种各样没有做好他们工作而导致了这场（金融）危机的管理机构（实行）更加严格的整理和合并。

（注：好个太极推手。麦凯恩接过奥巴马的咄咄逼人的锋头，顺势将这股力打向了金融管理机构。须知麦凯恩竞选的一个主要口号就是他要规整政府部门，改整机构。麦凯恩努力让大家把注意力集中在金融机构的失职上，而不是执政的共和党上，可谓用心良苦。然则美国老百姓也不是傻子。实事求是地说，这次金融危机，作为执政党的共和党确有较大责任。麦凯恩这一捣浆糊，看来很难糊弄过去。）

But I have a fundamental belief in the goodness and strength of the American worker. And the American worker is the most productive, the most innovative. America is still the greatest producer, exporter and importer.

但我心中深信美国劳动人民的善良和力量。而且美国劳动人民是富有生产力和创造力的（人民）。美国仍然是（世界上）最大的生产国、出口国和进口国。

（注：当政客甜言蜜语地夸奖老百姓的能力时，就是要让老百姓做牛做马的时候了。麦凯恩寄希望于美国人民努力工作，把金融危机的洞给填实喽。这一招实在是失策啊！占人口大多数的美国工人不会吃这一套。而奥巴马想要从大企业家和富翁身上剥层皮来填金融的大洞，显然更能得到大多数美国人的欢心。从现在的支持率来看，也是如此。）

But we've got to get through these times, but I have a fundamental belief in the United States of America. And I still believe, under the right leadership, our best days are ahead of us.

但我们一定要熬过这段时间，我深信美利坚合众国（能做到）。我还相信，在正确的领导下，幸福的生活就在我们前头。

punkxxx

LEHRER: All right, let's go to the next lead question, which is essentially following up on this same subject.

主持人：好，让我们进入下一个引导问题。这个引导问题实质上是第一个问题的深化。

And you get two minutes to begin with, Senator McCain. And using your word "fundamental," are there fundamental differences between your approach and Senator Obama's approach to what you would do as president to lead this country out of the financial crisis?

主持人：麦凯恩议员，（这）两分钟从你那里开始。（我）用你的词语“本质”。如果作为总统，领导这个国家走出经济危机，你的方法和奥巴马议员的方法有什么本质上的区别？

MCCAIN: Well, the first thing we have to do is get spending under control in Washington. It's completely out of control. It's gone -- we have now presided over the largest increase in the size of government since the Great Society.

麦凯恩：呃，我们得做的第一件事情就是控制华盛顿（注：指美国政府）的开销。它（开销）完全无法控制了。它已经脱缰而出——我们现在是眼巴巴地看着（我们）建国以来政府规模最大的膨胀。

We Republicans came to power to change government, and government changed us. And the -- the worst symptom on this disease is what my friend, Tom Coburn, calls earmarking as a gateway drug, because it's a gateway. It's a gateway to out-of-control spending and corruption.

我们共和党人拥有了改变政府的力量，而政府也改变了我们。而——这种病最坏的症状，正如我的朋友，汤姆.科本所说，财政特别拨款是一种入门毒品，因为那是一扇门，一扇通向不受控制的花销和腐败的大门。

（注：麦凯恩这里没有说只有民主党人有腐败，而是坦诚说道共和党人也有人中毒了。gateway drug: 有一种假设，认为服用不大容易上瘾的药品可能会引人服用更加危险的毒品甚至引人犯罪。香烟、酒精等常常被人们称为gateway drug。我这里把它翻译为入门毒品。）

And we have former members of Congress now residing in federal prison because of the evils of this earmarking and pork-barrel spending.

我们国会的一些前成员，因为在财政拨款和地方建设经费上犯的错误，现在正蹲在联邦监狱里面。

You know, we spent $3 million to study the DNA of bears in Montana. I don't know if that was a criminal issue or a paternal issue, but the fact is that it was $3 million of our taxpayers' money. And it has got to be brought under control.

你知道吗，我们花费了300万美元，用在研究蒙大纳州的熊的DNA上面。我不知道这究竟是（有人）犯罪还是家长式作风，但事实上是，那可是我们纳税人的300万美元呐。那应该被控制住。

（注：蒙大纳州：美国西北部与加拿大接壤的一个州。1889年被接纳为美国第41个州。大部分地区通过1803年路易斯安那的购买归属美国，路易斯和克拉克在 1805年和1806年勘查了此地。经过多年在其他西部地区分裂之后在1864年组成蒙大纳地区。赫勒拿是该州首府，比林斯是最大城市。人口 803,655）

As president of the United States, I want to assure you, I've got a pen. This one's kind of old. I've got a pen, and I'm going to veto every single spending bill that comes across my desk. I will make them famous. You will know their names.

（如果我）作为美国的总统，我要向你们保证——我有一只钢笔，这只有几分旧了——我有一只钢笔，而我将会否决掉每一笔经过我办公桌的开销提议。我会让它们臭名昭著。你们将知道它们的名字。

Now, Senator Obama, you wanted to know one of the differences. He has asked for $932 million of earmark pork-barrel spending, nearly a million dollars for every day that he's been in the United States Senate.

现在，奥巴马议员，你想要知道我们的一个区别。他（奥巴马）已经请求了9.32亿美元的财政拨款，自他当上美国议员后的每一天几乎都要走了100万美元。

I suggest that people go up on the Web site of Citizens Against Government Waste, and they'll look at those projects.

我建议人们登陆反对政府浪费公民网，就会看到（奥巴马）那些项目。

That kind of thing is not the way to rein in runaway spending in Washington, D.C. That's one of the fundamental differences that Senator Obama and I have.

那样的事情不是让华盛顿的开销放慢下来的做法。这就是我和奥巴马议员的一个本质的区别。

（注：麦凯恩终于亮牌了，且看奥巴马下面如何应对。）

punkxxx

LEHRER: Senator Obama, two minutes.

主持人：奥巴马议员，两分钟。

OBAMA: Well, Senator McCain is absolutely right that the earmarks process has been abused, which is why I suspended any requests for my home state, whether it was for senior centers or what have you, until we cleaned it up.

奥巴马：呃，好的，特别拨款程序已经被滥用了，麦凯恩议员（在这一点上）完全正确。这也是为什么我暂停了来自我家乡的任何（拨款）申请，不论是为了老年中心还是诸如此类，直到我们（政府）有了盈余为止。

（注： Earmark -> 在美国，Earmark指的是议员为他们的州或者地区所争取到的特别拨款。每个州或地区的居民选出一个议员来代表他们的利益，而这个议员则会向国会争取特别拨款来建设他们的家乡。这些财政拨款来自于所有美国人的税收。这些钱可称得上是取之于民，用之于民。如果议员将其中一部分钱据为己有，就叫作 "pork barrel"。一些联邦的议员已经为此进了大牢。）

And he's also right that oftentimes lobbyists and special interests are the ones that are introducing these kinds of requests, although that wasn't the case with me.

而且很多时候说客和特殊需要是引入这类（拨款）申请的源头，他（麦凯恩）（在这一点上）也是正确的。然而我的情况却有所不同。

But let's be clear: Earmarks account for $18 billion in last year's budget. Senator McCain is proposing -- and this is a fundamental difference between us -- $300 billion in tax cuts to some of the wealthiest corporations and individuals in the country, $300 billion.

让我们把话说清楚：在去年的预算中，特别拨款占了180亿美元。麦凯恩议员建议——这是我们俩的一个本质上的区别——向某些这个国家上最为富有的企业和个人的3000亿美元的减税计划，3000亿美元。

Now, $18 billion is important; $300 billion is really important. And in his tax plan, you would have CEOs of Fortune 500 companies getting an average of $700,000 in reduced taxes, while leaving 100 million Americans out.

现在，180亿美元重要；3000亿美元则非常重要。在他（麦凯恩）的减税计划中，你会发现财富500强企业的CEO们平均减税70万美元，而一亿美国人却被排除在外。

So my attitude is, we've got to grow the economy from the bottom up. What I've called for is a tax cut for 95 percent of working families, 95 percent.

所以我的态度是，我们得让经济从底层增长起来。我所呼吁的是向百分之95的工薪家庭的减税计划，百分之95。

And that means that the ordinary American out there who's collecting a paycheck every day, they've got a little extra money to be able to buy a computer for their kid, to fill up on this gas that is killing them.

那意味着那些每天都在挣薪水普通美国人，会有一些额外的钱来给他们的孩子购买电脑，来（给他们的车）加满那些要他们命的汽油。

And over time, that, I think, is going to be a better recipe for economic growth than the -- the policies of President Bush that John McCain wants to -- wants to follow.

而随着时间的过去，我认为，（我的方案）将是让经济增长的更好的处方——比麦凯恩议员想要遵循的布什总统的政策更好。

LEHRER: Senator McCain?

主持人：麦凯恩议员？

MCCAIN: Well, again, I don't mean to go back and forth, but he...

麦凯恩：这个，我再说一次，我不是要来回扯皮，但是他……

(CROSSTALK)
（插话）

LEHRER: No, that's fine.

主持人：没关系。

MCCAIN: Senator Obama suspended those requests for pork-barrel projects after he was running for president of the United States. He didn't happen to see that light during the first three years as a member of the United States Senate, $932 million in requests.

麦凯恩：奥巴马议员在竞选美国总统开始後就停止了那些拨款申请项目。而在他作为美国议会成员的前三年，没有见过他良心发现，9.32亿美元的申请啊。

（注：麦凯恩真够阴的，这句话我认为是在诱导听众制造假象。只要仔细思考一下，就会知道奥巴马之所以在竞选总统後停止了拨款申请，很有可能是因为太忙了，没有时间去国会辩论、争取那些建设经费了。而麦凯恩这么说乃是要误导听众，让大家以为是奥巴马在竞选总统後，为了装纯洁，而暂时放弃了拨款申请。）

Maybe to Senator Obama it's not a lot of money. But the point is that -- you see, I hear this all the time. "It's only $18 billion." Do you know that it's tripled in the last five years? Do you know that it's gone completely out of control to the point where it corrupts people? It corrupts people.

也许对奥巴马议员来说那算不上多少钱。但问题是——你看，我总是听到这个:（又尖又长的挖苦音调）“不过是180亿美元”。你知道那（特别拨款）在过去五年里翻了三倍吗？你知道那已经脱缰而出无法控制，以至于腐化官员了吗？它腐化着人们。

That's why we have, as I said, people under federal indictment and charges. It's a system that's got to be cleaned up.

那就是为什么，如我所说，一些人遭到联邦起诉和控告。这是一个急需修整的系统。

I have fought against it my career. I have fought against it. I was called the sheriff, by the -- one of the senior members of the Appropriations Committee. I didn't win Miss Congeniality in the United States Senate.

在我的职业生涯中，我一直在与之（腐败）斗争。我被一位财政拨款局的高级成员称为“县官”。我可不是美国议会中的好好先生。

punkxxx

Now, Senator Obama didn't mention that, along with his tax cuts, he is also proposing some $800 billion in new spending on new programs.

麦凯恩：现在，奥巴马议员没有提到，伴随着他的减税计划，还有用于新项目的8000亿美元的花费。

Now, that's a fundamental difference between myself and Senator Obama. I want to cut spending. I want to keep taxes low. The worst thing we could do in this economic climate is to raise people's taxes.

那就是我和奥巴马议员的一个本质区别。我想要消减（政府）花费。我想要保持低税率。在当前的经济气候下，最坏的事情就是从人民那里增加税收了。

OBAMA: I -- I don't know where John is getting his figures. Let's just be clear. What I do is I close corporate loopholes, stop providing tax cuts to corporations that are shipping jobs overseas so that we're giving tax breaks to companies that are investing here in the United States. I make sure that we have a health care system that allows for everyone to have basic coverage.

奥巴马：我——我不知道约翰（麦凯恩）从哪里得到他那些数据。让我们说清楚点。我所做的事情是关闭公司的漏洞，停止对那些向海外输出工作（机会）的企业的减税。这样我们才可以给在美国本土投资的企业减税。我确保我们有一个让每个人都得到基本覆盖的医疗系统。

I think those are pretty important priorities. And I pay for every dime of it.

我认为这些是要优先考虑的重要的事情。我会为之花出每一分钱。

But let's go back to the original point. John, nobody is denying that $18 billion is important. And, absolutely, we need earmark reform. And when I'm president, I will go line by line to make sure that we are not spending money unwisely.

但让我们回到开始的问题。约翰（麦凯恩），没有人否认180亿美元的重要性。而且，我们也的的确确需要改革专项拨款（制度）。当我是总统时，我将会一行一行地（检查拨款提议以）确保我们没有不智地乱花钱。

But the fact is that eliminating earmarks alone is not a recipe for how we're going to get the middle class back on track.

但问题是仅仅消除专项拨款，并不是让中产阶级回到正常轨道上来的办法。

OBAMA: And when you look at your tax policies that are directed primarily at those who are doing well, and you are neglecting people who are really struggling right now, I think that is a continuation of the last eight years, and we can't afford another four.

你看看你的税收政策，它主要对准的是那些（工作）做得好的人们，而你还在忽视那些现在正在挣扎着的人们。我认为那（麦凯恩的政策）是过去八年的延续，我们不能承受再一个四年了。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Respond directly to him about that, to Senator Obama about that, about the -- he's made it twice now, about your tax -- your policies about tax cuts.

主持人：（麦凯恩议员，）直接向奥巴马议员回答那个，那个）——他已经指出来两次了，关于你的减税政策。

MCCAIN: Well -- well, let me give you an example of what Senator Obama finds objectionable, the business tax.

麦凯恩：这个——这个，让我给你们一个被奥巴马议员找出来反对的例子，商业税。

Right now, the United States of American business pays the second-highest business taxes in the world, 35 percent. Ireland pays 11 percent.

目前，在美利坚合众国的生意缴纳着世界第二高的商业税，百分之35。在爱尔兰（只需）缴纳百分之11。

Now, if you're a business person, and you can locate any place in the world, then, obviously, if you go to the country where it's 11 percent tax versus 35 percent, you're going to be able to create jobs, increase your business, make more investment, et cetera.

现在，如果你是一个生意人，而你可以（把你的生意）放在世界上的任何位置，然后，显然，相对于收百分之35税的国家，如果你去只收百分之11的国家，你将可以创造工作机会，做大你的生意，作出更多的投资，等等。

I want to cut that business tax. I want to cut it so that businesses will remain in -- in the United States of America and create jobs.

我希望削减商业税。我希望削减它使得生意能够留在——留在美利坚合众国并创造工作（机会）。

But, again, I want to return. It's a lot more than $18 billion in pork-barrel spending. I can tell you, it's rife. It's throughout.

但，再说一次，我想回到（特别拨款的话题）。它远比180亿美元的建设经费花销多。我可以告诉你，它相当普遍，它已经遍及了（整个议会）。

The United States Senate will take up a continuing resolution tomorrow or the next day, sometime next week, with 2,000 -- 2,000 -- look at them, my friends. Look at them. You'll be appalled.

美国参议院将要继续一项决议，明天，也许后天，也许下个周。那是2000——2000——瞅瞅那个，我的朋友。瞅瞅，你会被吓坏的。

And Senator Obama is a recent convert, after requesting $932 million worth of pork-barrel spending projects.

而奥巴马议员最近洗手了，在申请了价值9.32亿美元的特别拨款项目后。

So the point is, I want people to have tax cuts. I want every family to have a $5,000 refundable tax credit so they can go out and purchase their own health care. I want to double the dividend from $3,500 to $7,000 for every dependent child in America.

所以问题是，我希望人们得到减税。我希望每个家庭得到五千美元的退税，这样，他们能出去购买他们自己的医疗保障。我希望每一个抚养美国贫苦儿童的奖金翻番，由3500美元到7000美元。

I know that the worst thing we could possibly do is to raise taxes on anybody, and a lot of people might be interested in Senator Obama's definition of "rich."

我知道我们最糟的做法也许就是向任何人增加税收，而许许多多人也许都会对奥巴马议员所谓的“富裕”感兴趣。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Senator Obama, you have a question for Senator McCain on that?

主持人：奥巴马议员，对麦凯恩议员刚才所说的有问题吗？

OBAMA: Well, let me just make a couple of points.

奥巴马：呃，让我指出几点来。

LEHRER: All right.

主持人：好的。

OBAMA: My definition -- here's what I can tell the American people: 95 percent of you will get a tax cut. And if you make less than $250,000, less than a quarter-million dollars a year, then you will not see one dime's worth of tax increase.

奥巴马：我的（关于富裕的）定义——这里是我可以告诉美国人民的：你们中的百分之95都将得到减税。而如果你的收入少于25万美元，每年少于25万美元，你将不会看到（哪怕是）一分钱的税收增加。

Now, John mentioned the fact that business taxes on paper are high in this country, and he's absolutely right. Here's the problem: There are so many loopholes that have been written into the tax code, oftentimes with support of Senator McCain, that we actually see our businesses pay effectively one of the lowest tax rates in the world.

现在，约翰（麦凯恩）提到这个国家的商业税在纸面上很高的这个事实，他完全正确。问题是：我们有太多的漏洞写进了税务法，这些漏洞常常就是麦凯恩议员支持的，以致于我们国家的商业活动实际上缴纳是世界上最低的税率之一。

And what that means, then, is that there are people out there who are working every day, who are not getting a tax cut, and you want to give them more.

那意味着什么？那意味着那些每天工作的人们，他们没有得到减税，而你还想要从他们那里收取更多（税）。

It's not like you want to close the loopholes. You just want to add an additional tax cut over the loopholes. And that's a problem.

似乎你不是想要关闭那些漏洞。只是想在那些（免税）漏洞上（向富人）提供更多的减税。而那就是问题所在。

Just one last point I want to make, since Senator McCain talked about providing a $5,000 health credit. Now, what he doesn't tell you is that he intends to, for the first time in history, tax health benefits.

既然麦凯恩议员谈到了提供5000美元的退税（计划），我还想指出最后一点。那些他没有告诉你们的，那就是，他企图有史以来首次向医疗保险收税。

So you may end up getting a $5,000 tax credit. Here's the only problem: Your employer now has to pay taxes on the health care that you're getting from your employer. And if you end up losing your health care from your employer, you've got to go out on the open market and try to buy it.

所以你们最终也许能得到5000美元的退税。唯一的问题是：你们的老板现在得为向你们提供的医疗保险缴税。而且如果你们最终（由于老板不愿意缴税）而失去了你们老板所提供的医疗保险，你们只能到外面去自己给自己买一份。

It is not a good deal for the American people. But it's an example of this notion that the market can always solve everything and that the less regulation we have, the better off we're going to be.

这对美国人民来说可不是一件好事。但这就是采纳（麦凯恩的）这个观念一个例子。这观念认为市场可以解决一切问题，对市场的管理越少，我们的日子就会过得越好。

punkxxx

MCCAIN: Well, you know, let me just...

麦凯恩：呃，你知道，让我只是……

LEHRER: We've got to go to another lead question.

主持人：（打断）我们得进入下一个引导问题了。

MCCAIN: I know we have to, but this is a classic example of walking the walk and talking the talk.

麦凯恩：（打断）我知道我们得（进入下一个问题）了，但（奥巴马）的行为是一个典型的做归做，说归说的例子。

（注： Walking the walk, and talking the talk。最早源自亚里士多德的追随者，他们通常一边走来走去，一边讨论着哲学问题。后来，这些人就被称为“Walk the talk”，即“实践着谈论”，因为他们的讨论就是在实践。而“Walk the walk”后来就指实践活动，“Talk the talk”则指高谈阔论。）

We had an energy bill before the United States Senate. It was festooned with Christmas tree ornaments. It had all kinds of breaks for the oil companies, I mean, billions of dollars worth. I voted against it; Senator Obama voted for it.

美国国会之前曾有过一个能源议案。它用圣诞树上的装饰品打扮得很好。它有着各种各样的向石油公司的减税，我指的是，价值几十亿美元的税。我投票反对了这个议案，而奥巴马议员投票支持了这个议案。

OBAMA: John, you want to give oil companies another $4 billion.

奥巴马：（插话）约翰（麦凯恩），你想要给石油公司另外40亿美元的减税。

MCCAIN: You've got to look at our record. You've got to look at our records. That's the important thing.

麦凯恩：（打断）我们必须瞅瞅自己的过去。瞅瞅自己的过去。那很重要。

Who fought against wasteful and earmark spending? Who has been the person who has tried to keep spending under control? Who's the person who has believed that the best thing for America is -- is to have a tax system that is fundamentally fair? And I've fought to simplify it, and I have proposals to simplify it.

谁在和浪费的拨款项目花销作斗争？谁是那个一直试图在控制花销的人？谁认为对美国最好的东西就是……就是一个根本上公平的税收系统？我一直在为精简（开销）而战斗，而且我提出了精简它的办法。

Let's give every American a choice: two tax brackets, generous dividends, and, two -- and let Americans choose whether they want the -- the existing tax code or they want a new tax code.

让我们给每个美国人一个选择：两个缴税等级（指富人和穷人缴纳不同的税率），高利息，还有，两个——让美国人民来选择他们想要哪个——旧的税务法还是想要一个新的税务法。

And so, again, look at the record, particularly the energy bill. But, again, Senator Obama has shifted on a number of occasions. He has voted in the United States Senate to increase taxes on people who make as low as $42,000 a year.

所以，再说一次，看看（奥巴马）以前的记录，特别是那能源议案。奥巴马议员在多个场合过改变（他的立场）。他曾经在美国议会投票支持向那些年收入只有4.2万美元之低的人增税。

OBAMA: That's not true, John. That's not true.

奥巴马：（插话）那不是真的，约翰。那不是真的。

MCCAIN: And that's just a fact. Again, you can look it up.

麦凯恩：（打断）那就是事实。我再说一次，你可以去查一下。

OBAMA: Look, it's just not true. And if we want to talk about oil company profits, under your tax plan, John -- this is undeniable -- oil companies would get an additional $4 billion in tax breaks.

奥巴马：听着，那不是真的。如果我们要谈谈石油公司的利润，在你的税收计划下，约翰（麦凯恩）——你否认不了——石油公司将得到额外40亿美元的减税。

Now, look, we all would love to lower taxes on everybody. But here's the problem: If we are giving them to oil companies, then that means that there are those who are not going to be getting them. And...

现在，听着，我们每个人都喜欢低税率。但问题是：如果我们给石油公司减税，那意味着另外一些人将得不到减税，而且……

MCCAIN: With all due respect, you already gave them to the oil companies.

麦凯恩：（打断）不好意思，你已经给那些石油公司减税了。

（注：with all due respect = with the admiration that is owed。我这里把它翻译为不好意思。它用于礼貌地对某个人的观点表示不赞同。）

OBAMA: No, but, John, the fact of the matter is, is that I was opposed to those tax breaks, tried to strip them out. We've got an emergency bill on the Senate floor right now that contains some good stuff, some stuff you want, including drilling off-shore, but you're opposed to it because it would strip away those tax breaks that have gone to oil companies.

奥巴马：（打断）没有，约翰，实际情况是，我反对了那些减税。试图把它们（减税的部分）（从能源提案中）剥离出去。现在，在议员席上我们就有一个紧急议案。它包含一些好的提议，包含一些你想要的提议，例如在海上钻井。但是你反对了它（议案）因为那可能会夺走那些已经给予了石油公司的减税。

punkxxx

LEHRER: All right. All right, speaking of things that both of you want, another lead question, and it has to do with the rescue -- the financial rescue thing that we started -- started asking about.

主持人：好了，好了，（在下一个问题里）说你们俩想说的吧，另一个问题。这个问题与救援行动有关——我们已经开始问（你们的）金融救援行动。

And what -- and the first answer is to you, Senator Obama. As president, as a result of whatever financial rescue plan comes about and the billion, $700 billion, whatever it is it's going to cost, what are you going to have to give up, in terms of the priorities that you would bring as president of the United States, as a result of having to pay for the financial rescue plan?

什么……呃，首先回答问题的是你，奥巴马议员。如果你是美国总统，在金融救援计划——不管是什么样的金融拯救计划还有那上亿，呃，7000亿美元，不管那将要花多少钱，在金融救援计划产生的结果中，你会放弃什么？作为美国总统的你会按优先级提出哪些来作为（执行）金融救援计划不得不付出的代价？

OBAMA: Well, there are a range of things that are probably going to have to be delayed. We don't yet know what our tax revenues are going to be. The economy is slowing down, so it's hard to anticipate right now what the budget is going to look like next year.

奥巴马：好的，我们有一大批事务可能都得延期了。我们还不知道税收将会怎样（增加或减少）。经济正在放缓，现在很难预测明年的预算将会是什么样。

But there's no doubt that we're not going to be able to do everything that I think needs to be done. There are some things that I think have to be done.

但毫不怀疑地，我们将不能做完所有我认为需要做的事情了。有些事情我认为我们必须得做。

（注：奥巴马重点强调了“需要”做的事和“必须”得做的事的区别。）

We have to have energy independence, so I've put forward a plan to make sure that, in 10 years' time, we have freed ourselves from dependence on Middle Eastern oil by increasing production at home, but most importantly by starting to invest in alternative energy, solar, wind, biodiesel, making sure that we're developing the fuel-efficient cars of the future right here in the United States, in Ohio and Michigan, instead of Japan and South Korea.

我们必须得实现能源独立。所以我已经拿出一个计划来确保在10年的时间内，解除我们对中东石油的依赖，靠增加（我们）自家的（石油）产量，但最重要的是开始投资代替（石油的）能源：太阳能，风能，生物柴油。确保我们将来就在我们这里，美国，在俄亥俄州和密歇根州，开发高效利用能源的汽车，而不是在日本或韩国。

（注：生物柴油，如甲酯，植物油，这些可以直接作为柴油机的燃料。）

We have to fix our health care system, which is putting an enormous burden on families. Just -- a report just came out that the average deductible went up 30 percent on American families.

我们得修整我们的医疗系统，它给（美国）家庭增加了巨大的负担。刚出来的……一个刚出来的报告说美国家庭医保的自费部分平均增加了百分之30。

（注：Deductible，可扣除部分，税务或保险专用术语。我将之翻译为自费部分，应该对我们中国人来说较好理解。）

They are getting crushed, and many of them are going bankrupt as a consequence of health care. I'm meeting folks all over the country. We have to do that now, because it will actually make our businesses and our families better off.

他们正被（医疗费用）压迫，他们中的许多家庭由于医疗开支就要破产了。我在全国各地都遇到了这样的人。我们现在得行动了，因为那样事实上会让我们的企业和家庭更美好。

（注：以我在美国所见到的，到处都是汽车，私人游艇，到处都是别墅，带着草坪，游泳池，环境不是一般般的好。超市门口的停车场比上海虹桥机场的停车场还要大，停放的汽车犹如盘子里的芝麻。整个西海岸，绵延一片全部是城市带，高速公路四通八达。美国如此富强的国家，那些家庭都已经因为医疗开支“就要破产” 了。这让我想起台湾物价上涨一点点，台湾人就抱怨物价太贵，活不下去了。还是我们国家好，物价再怎么涨，还是“对生活影响不大”。）

The third thing we have to do is we've got to make sure that we're competing in education. We've got to invest in science and technology. China had a space launch and a space walk. We've got to make sure that our children are keeping pace in math and in science.

我们得做的第三条就是我们得确保我们的教育有竞争力。我们必须得投资科学技术了。中国作了一次太空发射（指我们的神七）和太空行走。我们必须得确保我们的孩子在数学和科学上跟上节奏。

（注：中国还可以做得更好！只要我们给八亿农民公平的机会，给他们的孩子好一点的教育机会，多一点教育投入，让我们的教育投入占财政收入的比例在世界国家中不用倒着数。不是靠教育来挣钱，不是靠户口来剥夺农民的孩子公平的机会。我们中国自古以来就有不少伟大的思想家、教育家、科学家，十几亿人口，我相信我们的爱因斯坦就在其中。）

（同时，我还想到老祖宗的一句话：人贵有自知之明。美国人这么说，是他们的危机意识比较强。我们自己不能忘乎所以，连实际的科技水平在哪里都忘了。实际的情况是，1961年苏联就发射了宇宙飞船，加加林绕地球一周，成为历史上第一个进入太空的人类。70年代，美国发射行星探测器，先探测火星，然后继续飞向木星的几颗卫星，利用木星的引力作为动力，飞向土星的卫星，穿过土星光环，飞向冥王星，传输了无数有价值的资料。至今该探测器已经飞出太阳系外，还在不断地向地球传回数据。现在距离1961年已经快半个世纪了。曾记否，我们还拿不出一张自己的灾区的卫星图片，我们还没有国产的helicopter，甚至在失事之后，我们几天都找不到。那些为中国科技进步而高兴的朋友看到我说这些话请不要生气。因为只有正确地认识自己，才能认识世界。如果连自己都欺骗，那真的很可悲。）

And one of the things I think we have to do is make sure that college is affordable for every young person in America.

其中我认为我们得做的一件事是让每一个美国的年轻人都上得起大学。

（注：这里，奥巴马更多的是为美国的贫民，黑人争取利益。如果奥巴马竞选总统成功，这些人的状况当有所改善。）

And I also think that we're going to have to rebuild our infrastructure, which is falling behind, our roads, our bridges, but also broadband lines that reach into rural communities.

我也认为我们得要重建我们的基础建设，它已经落后了，我们的道路，桥梁，还有接入农村的宽带连接。

Also, making sure that we have a new electricity grid to get the alternative energy to population centers that are using them.

还有，确保我们有一个新的电网，使得那些人口中心能够用它作为替代能源。

So there are some -- some things that we've got to do structurally to make sure that we can compete in this global economy. We can't shortchange those things. We've got to eliminate programs that don't work, and we've got to make sure that the programs that we do have are more efficient and cost less.

所以，这里有一些——一些我们在结构上必须得做的事情，以确保我们能在当今全球经济中竞争。我们不能从这些上面省钱。我们得消除那些不起作用的计划，我们还得确保我们现有的计划更加有效，花销更少。

（注：奥巴马真是雄心勃勃。然奥巴马聪明之处在于他说了一大堆冠冕堂皇的话后，仍然没有回答主持人的问题。他确定地没有说他要放弃什么。而且，如果我是一个美国人，我对奥巴马能否实现他这些甜言蜜语将表示怀疑。毕竟 Action speaks louder than words。要取得美国人的信任，奥巴马还需要努力。）

punkxxx

LEHRER: Are you -- what priorities would you adjust, as president, Senator McCain, because of the -- because of the financial bailout cost?

主持人：你会……作为总统，你会给出一个什么样的优先级，麦凯恩议员，作为……作为金融拯救（计划）的代价？

MCCAIN: Look, we, no matter what, we've got to cut spending. We have -- as I said, we've let government get completely out of control.

麦凯恩：听着，我们，不管（发生）什么情况，都得控制花销。我们已经……如我所说，政府（的开销）已经完全失去控制了。

Senator Obama has the most liberal voting record in the United States Senate. It's hard to reach across the aisle from that far to the left.

奥巴马议员有着美国议会中最为慷慨的投票记录（注：指奥巴马花钱大手大脚）。江山易改，本性难移啊。

The point -- the point is -- the point is, we need to examine every agency of government.

问题……问题是……问题是，我们需要检查政府的每一个部门。

First of all, by the way, I'd eliminate ethanol subsidies. I oppose ethanol subsidies.

首先，我顺便说一下，我要取消酒精补助。我反对酒精补助。

（注：酒精补助。由于全球石油价格上涨，以及新能源开发的需要，美国开始用玉米来酿造酒精，用于内燃机的能源。为了鼓励大家酿造酒精，美国政府对酒精生产给予补助。2006年美国生产了49亿加仑的酒精，美国政府为之付出了70亿美元的补助。即每加仑酒精，补助1.45美元。用于酿造酒精的玉米都是转基因玉米，产量大，价格低。但是转基因玉米虽然便宜，也不是人吃的，美国人用它来喂狗，因为转基因食品可能对人体产生不可逆转的影响。）

（酒精补助在美国国内遭到了一些非议。例如，即使在2006年油价最高的时候，生产一加仑的酒精也只比生产一加仑的汽油多出38美分。那意味着每加仑酒精补助的 1.45美元中，有1.12美元都是实实在在的奖励。这让农场主、酒精生产工厂还有那些中间商发了一笔横财。纳税人为此抱怨不止，认为政府乱花他们的钱。）

（以上关于酒精补助的信息部分来源于zfacts (http://zfacts.com)，zfacts是一个讨论（美国）各类有争议性的时事话题的站点，如，税收，财富，工作，战争以及环境。）

（大家也许会问，为什么麦凯恩会反对酒精补助呢？这是因为麦凯恩所代表的，有一部分是美国军工和石油巨头的利益，大家在后面会看到麦凯恩和奥巴马关于伊拉克局势截然不同的观点。）

（大家不要一看到麦凯恩代表了资本家的利益，就习惯性地认为麦凯恩是”坏“的。这其实是我们国内教育环境下的一种定势思维。用我们老祖宗的一句话来说：兵无常势，水无常形。没有人是天生的资本家，也没有人是天生的苦力。这两种人都是可能互相转换的。在一个公平竞争的社会环境下，老板之所以称为老板，在于他过人的胆识和智慧，再加上点运气。资本家一样为社会作出贡献，我不敢说资本家和工人的贡献谁更大，但那就只是不同的社会分工而已。一个公平的社会，资本家和工人应该是势力均衡的，资本家考虑的是更自由的市场，更公平的环境，更精简的政府，资本家还有着对外扩张的野心。正如你们将在麦凯恩的语言中看到的一样。而资本家的这种行为，对本国人民来说，未必是件坏事。工人则会考虑的更多的社会福利，医疗，教育。这些社会福利的钱来自于税收。工人和资本家的分歧就在于政策的天平往哪个方向多倾斜一点而已。）

（在一个均衡的环境下，政策的天平总是微微晃动着。有时候资本家垄断了太多资源，并剥削工人以致于他们只能简单再生产，无法给他的孩子好的教育，无法得到医疗保障，没有成长成为资本家的机会。政策就要倾向于对资本家多征税，多制约，再将这些税用于社会福利。）

（有时税向资本家收得太多，这些税收又用于社会福利，使得工人福利太好，以致于大家都乐意吃大锅饭，社会变得懒散，科技开始停滞，就要减少征税，鼓励大家自己为自己的未来打拼。）

（任何一方的坐大，都将使得社会变得畸形。而畸形的社会只能畸形发展。对于美国来说，代表资本家利益的共和党已经执政了八年，现在是时候考虑一下社会的福利问题了。）

I think that we have to return -- particularly in defense spending, which is the largest part of our appropriations -- we have to do away with cost-plus contracts. We now have defense systems that the costs are completely out of control.

麦凯恩：我认为我们得回到（节省的政府）了——特别是在国防开支上。它占据了最多的特别拨款——我们得废除这个（国防的）“加价合同”。我们现在的国防系统开支已经完全失控了。

（注： cost-plus contract，项目招投标专用术语，指的是可加价合同。指承包人在完成项目後可以根据自己的实际花销报价，或者是增加价格，以弥补由于当初订合同时考虑不周而忽略的款项。相对于cost-plus contract的是fixed-price contract，即固定价格合同。而这里的cost-plus contract指的就是政府议员通过特别拨款法案从而在预算外额外增加国防拨款，这个行为看上去就好像国防开支这个项目与美国纳税人之间订了一个加价合同一样。）

We tried to build a little ship called the Littoral Combat Ship that was supposed to cost $140 million, ended up costing $400 million, and we still haven't done it.

我们曾经要研发一种叫”海岸战舰“的小型战舰。我们预期花费1.4亿美元，结果我们花了4亿美元，而且战舰的研发还没有结束。

（注： Littoral combat ship，一种美国海军的下一代轻型战舰。最早于2004年提出设计蓝图。其研发目标是创建一种小巧、快速、机动性强而且相对价格较低的战舰，它隶属于朱姆沃尔特级驱逐舰类。它将容易被配置于多种用途，这些用途包括反潜战、反水雷、海面作战、侦察、后勤等等。）

So we need to have fixed-cost contracts. We need very badly to understand that defense spending is very important and vital, particularly in the new challenges we face in the world, but we have to get a lot of the cost overruns under control.

所以我们得要一个“固定价格合同”（注：指国防开支严格按照预算执行）。（我知道）我们得高度重视国防开支的重要性和关键性，特别是我们在这个世界上面临到的新挑战方面，但是我们必须得控制这许许多多的开销泛滥。

I know how to do that.

我知道该怎么去做。

MCCAIN: I saved the taxpayers $6.8 billion by fighting a contract that was negotiated between Boeing and DOD that was completely wrong. And we fixed it and we killed it and the people ended up in federal prison so I know how to do this because I've been involved these issues for many, many years. But I think that we have to examine every agency of government and find out those that are doing their job and keep them and find out those that aren't and eliminate them and we'll have to scrub every agency of government.

麦凯恩：我曾经抗争过一个波音公司和美国国防部之间的完全错误的合同，从而为纳税人省下了68亿美元。我们修订了它（合同）并最後取消了它。那些人（注：指美国国防部最初去签订合同的人）最终进了联邦监狱。我与这种事情战斗了许多，许多年，这就是为什么我知道怎么去做（减少政府开销）。我认为我们必须得检查每一个政府部门，留下那些认真做好他们工作的部门，解散那些没有做好工作的部门。最终我们将净化每一个政府部门。

（注：DOD = United States Department of Defense.)

punkxxx

LEHRER: But if I hear the two of you correctly neither one of you is suggesting any major changes in what you want to do as president as a result of the financial bailout? Is that what you're saying?

主持人：（迷惑）但如果我没有听错的话，你们俩都没有提出由于金融拯救的后果，你们成为美国总统后做法的主要变化。你们的回答是这样的吗？

OBAMA: No. As I said before, Jim, there are going to be things that end up having to be ...

奥巴马：不。我刚才说过了，吉姆（主持人），有一些事务最终将不得不……

LEHRER: Like what?

主持人：例如哪些事务？

OBAMA: ... deferred and delayed. Well, look, I want to make sure that we are investing in energy in order to free ourselves from the dependence on foreign oil. That is a big project. That is a multi-year project.

奥巴马：……不得不推到后面去做和延迟了。呃，你看，我想确保我们对能源的投资，这样，我们就能解放我们对外国石油的依赖。那是一个很大的计划，那是一个多年计划。

LEHRER: Not willing to give that up?

主持人：（你）不会放弃它（能源投资）？

OBAMA: Not willing to give up the need to do it but there may be individual components that we can't do. But John is right we have to make cuts. We right now give $15 billion every year as subsidies to private insurers under the Medicare system. Doesn't work any better through the private insurers. They just skim off $15 billion. That was a give away and part of the reason is because lobbyists are able to shape how Medicare works.They did it on the Medicaid prescription drug bill, they've done it with respect to Medicare. and we're gonna have to change the culture.

奥巴马：（我）不会放弃执行它的需要，但（其中）一些个别事务我们不能做了。我们得削减（支出），约翰（麦凯恩）在这点上是对的。现在我们每年都要给医疗保障制度下的一些私营保险公司发放150亿美元的补助。（但医疗保障却）没有通过这些私营保险公司做得更好。他们只是刮走了150亿美元。那就是白送，部分（出现这种情况）的原因是因为政客可以指定医疗保险如何实施。他们（政客）这样对政府补助的药品清单议案做了，他们已经这样修改了医疗保障系统。而我们将得改变那种风气。

（注：They did it on the Medicaid prescription drug bill. 指某些代表药品公司利益的政客为了替药品公司争取利益，将一些药品公司的药物列为了自费药物。）

Tom -- or John mentioned me being wildly liberal. Mostly that's just me opposing George Bush's wrong headed policies since I've been in Congress but I think it is that it is also important to recognize I worked with Tom Coburn, the most conservative, one of the most conservative Republicans who John already mentioned to set up what we call a Google for government saying we'll list every dollar of federal spending to make sure that the taxpayer can take a look and see who, in fact, is promoting some of these spending projects that John's been railing about.

汤姆……呃，约翰（麦凯恩）提到过我是胡乱地慷慨。但大多数时候那只是因为自从我进入国会后，我反对乔治. 布什错误方向的政策。我认为重要的是要记得我曾经和汤姆.科本一起工作。他是最保守、约翰（麦凯恩）已经提到过的最保守的共和党人之一。我们一起建立一个系统，叫做政府Google。（这个系统的）构思是我们将列出联邦政府所花出的每一分钱，以确保纳税人可以看看谁，事实上正在倡议那些约翰（麦凯恩）一直在责骂的花销项目。

LEHRER: What I'm trying to get at this is this. Excuse me if I may, senator. Trying to get at that you all -- one of you is going to be the president of the United States come January. At the -- in the middle of a huge financial crisis that is yet to be resolved. And what I'm trying to get at is how this is going to affect you not in very specific -- small ways but in major ways and the approach to take as to the presidency.

主持人：我一直想要在这个（话题）上知道的是这个。（麦凯恩插话）（主持人再次插话）对不起，议员。我想要知道你们都……呃，你们中的其中一个将在来年一月份成为美国总统。在这个……在一场巨大的尚未解决的金融危机中。我想要知道的是这个（金融危机）会怎样影响你们……不是在一些具体的方法，一些小的方法上，而是在你们在总统任期内要采用的主要的方式和方法。

MCCAIN: How about a spending freeze on everything but defense, veteran affairs and entitlement programs.

麦凯恩：（你们觉得）冻结所有的开销，除了国防，退伍军人事务和社会福利程序怎么样？

LEHRER: Spending freeze?

主持人：冻结开销？

MCCAIN: I think we ought to seriously consider with the exceptions the caring of veterans, national defense and several other vital issues.

麦凯恩：我认为我们应该认真考虑一下（冻结开销），除了照顾退伍军人、国防和其他一些最重要的事情例外。

LEHRER: Would you go for that?

主持人：（对奥巴马说）你会拥护那个（开销的冻结）吗？

OBAMA: The problem with a spending freeze is you're using a hatchet where you need a scalpel. There are some programs that are very important that are under funded. I went to increase early childhood education and the notion that we should freeze that when there may be, for example, this Medicare subsidy I think doesn't make sense.

奥巴马：冻结大多数开销的问题是你在用斧头（处理问题），而你（真正）需要的是一把（精巧的）手术刀。（注：完了，麦凯恩又一次被奥巴马抓住了把柄。这句 “冻结开销”真的是说得太过了。作为政客，最忌讳把话说死，留给对手的是无数的把柄。麦凯恩今天的状态真的太差了。）有一些非常重要的程序，现在投资不足。我准备增加早期幼儿教育（的投入），而（我们的）观念应该是我们冻结那些，例如，这个医保补助。我认为它没有意义。

Let me tell you another place to look for some savings. We are currently spending $10 billion a month in Iraq when they have a $79 billion surplus. It seems to me that if we're going to be strong at home as well as strong abroad, that we have to look at bringing that war to a close.

让我告诉你们另一个地方可以省钱的。我们当下每个月在伊拉克都花费100亿美，而他们（伊拉克）（注：到2008年年底）有着790亿美元的盈余。对我来说，如果我们想要在国内和国际都一样强大，那我们就得着眼于结束那场战争了。

MCCAIN: Look, we are sending $700 billion a year overseas to countries that don't like us very much. Some of that money ends up in the hands of terrorist organizations. We have to have wind, tide, solar, natural gas, flex fuel cars and all that but we also have to have offshore drilling and we also have to have nuclear power.

麦凯恩：听着，我们每年都在向海外一些不喜欢我们的国家送出7000亿美元。那些钱有些最后落到了恐怖组织的手里。我们必须得有风能、潮汐能、太阳能、天然气、混合燃料汽车还有所有那些。但我们也必须得有海底钻探，还有，我们得有核能。

Senator Obama opposes both storing and reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel. You can't get there from here and the fact is that we can create 700,000 jobs by building constructing 45 new nuclear power plants by the year 2030. Nuclear power is not only important as far as eliminating our dependence on foreign oil but it's also important (responsibility) as far as climate change is concerned and the issue that I have been involved in for many, many years and I'm proud of the work that I've done there along with President Clinton.

奥巴马议员反对废弃核燃料的存储和回收。（那样）你将不能从现在（的状况）到达（你所说的）那里。实际上是，我们可以通过在2030年前建设45家新的核能工厂创造70万个就业岗位。核能不仅仅重要在消除我们对外国石油的依赖上，还在于环境改变（温室效应）被考虑到上。我已经涉入这个问题（核能开发）许多许多年了。我为我和克林顿总统一起为之做出的成就感到骄傲。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Before we go to another lead question. Let me figure out a way to ask the same question in a slightly different way here. Are you -- are you willing to acknowledge both of you that this financial crisis is going to affect the way you rule the country as president of the United States beyond the kinds of things that you have already -- I mean, is it a major move? Is it going to have a major affect?

主持人：在我们进入下一个引导问题之前，请让我以另外一种稍微不同的方式来问同一个问题。你们……你们是否承认这次金融危机会影响到你们作为美国总统管理这个国家的方法，在那些你们已经提出的方法之外……我指的是，它（金融危机）会变换你们的主要路线吗？你们的政策会主要地到影响吗？

OBAMA: There's no doubt it will affect our budgets. There is no doubt about it. Not only -- Even if we get all $700 billion back, let's assume the markets recover, we' holding assets long enough that eventually taxpayers get it back and that happened during the Great Depression when Roosevelt purchased a whole bunch of homes, over time, home values went back up and in fact government made a profit. If we're lucky and do it right, that could potentially happen but in the short term there's an outlay and we may not see that money for a while.

奥巴马：毫不怀疑金融危机将影响我们的预算，毫不怀疑。不仅仅在……呃，即使我们赚回了那7000亿美元。我们假设市场恢复了，我们足够长时间拥有那些资产，最终纳税人收回了那些钱。那样的事情在大萧条(1929)时发生过，当时罗斯福购买了一大批住房，随着时间的过去，房价重新恢复（到了以前的价格），事实上，政府（在这个过程中）还赚了一笔。如果我们幸运地做好了这件政策的话，这件可能执行的政策（指救市）的话。但是短时间内，我们将付出一笔费用，而我们在一段时间内都看不到那笔钱。

And because of the economy's slowing down, I think we can also expect less tax revenue so there's no doubt that as president I'm go doing have to make some tough decision.

又因为经济正在放缓，我觉得我们也可以预见税收的减少，所以，毫不怀疑地，作为总统，我将不得不做出一些艰难的决定。

The only point I want to make is this, that in order to make the tough decisions we have to know what our values are and who we're fighting for and our priorities and if we are spending $300 billion on tax cuts for people who don't need them and weren't even asking for them, and we are leaving out health care which is crushing on people all across the country, then I think we have made a bad decision and I want to make sure we're not shortchanging our long term priorities.

我想指出的唯一点是这个：为了做出这些艰难的决定，我们得知道我们的（核心）价值在哪里，我们为谁战斗以及我们（做事）的优先级。如果我们把3000亿美元的减税给予了那些根本不需要减税的人们，那些甚至没有要求这个的人们，那我们就放弃了（解决）重压在这个国家的人民头上的医疗保障。如果是那样，我认为我们就做了一个错误的决定。我希望我们没有在长期的重要事务上省钱。

MCCAIN: Well, I want to make sure we're not handing the health care system over to the federal government which is basically what would ultimately happen with Senator Obama's health care plan. I want the families to make decisions between themselves and their doctors. Not the federal government. Look. We have to obviously cut spending. I have fought to cut spending. Senator Obama has $800 billion in new spending programs. I would suggest he start by canceling some of those new spending program that he has.

麦凯恩：呃，我不希望让我们的联邦政府管理整个医疗保障系统，而那将是麦凯恩议员的医疗保障计划的一部分。我希望让那些家庭在他们和医生间自己决定（医疗保障），而不是联邦政府。显然，我们必须得消减开支。我一直为消减开支而战斗。奥巴马议员提出了8000亿美元的新开支项目。我希望他能取消掉一些他提出的新开支项目。

We can't I think adjust spending around to take care of the very much needed programs, including taking care of our veterans but I also want to say again a healthy economy with low taxes would not raising anyone's taxes is probably the best recipe for eventually having our economy recover.

我们不能……我认为……不能调整那些真正需要的开支项目，例如退伍军人的照顾。但我想再说一次，一个健康的经济（环境），低税率……呃，不对任何人增加税收，也许是最终让我们的经济恢复的最好处方。

And spending restraint has got to be a vital part of that. And the reason, one of the major reasons why we're in the difficulties we are in today is because spending got out of control. We owe China $500 billion. And spending, I know, can be brought under control because I have fought against excessive spending my entire career. And I got plans to reduce and eliminate unnecessary and wasteful spending and if there's anybody here who thinks there aren't agencies of government where spending can be cut and their budgets slashed they have not spent a lot of time in Washington.

而开销控制将是一个重要的部分。其原因，一个造成我们今天这种困难的主要的原因，是因为不受控制的花销。我们欠中国5000亿美元。而花销，我知道，是可以被控制住的，因为在我的整个职业生涯中，我一直在与过度花销作斗争。我有减少和取消不必要和浪费的花销的计划。而如果有任何人认为没有一个政府部门的开销可以削减，预算可以削减的话，他一定没有在华盛顿长时间呆过。（注：这里映射奥巴马经验不足。）

OBAMA: I just want to make this point, Jim. John, it's been your president who you said you agreed with 90 percent of the time who presided over this increase in spending. This orgy of spending and enormous deficits you voted for almost all of his budgets. So to stand here and after eight years and say that you're going to lead on controlling spending and, you know, balancing our tax cuts so that they help middle class families when over the last eight years that hasn't happened I think just is, you know, kind of hard to swallow.

奥巴马：我只是想指出这点，吉姆……呃，约翰（麦凯恩），百分之90的时候都是你那位你支持的总统（注：指布什）在主持花销的增加。你投票支持了几乎所有他那些放纵的花销和巨大的赤字预算。而八年后，你站在这里，说你要主导花销的控制。还有那个，你知道的，在过去的八年时间你从没有要平衡我们的减税（注：指麦凯恩为富人减税太多，却忽略了平民）以便帮助中产阶级家庭。我认为这（行为）是，你知道，某种自食其言。

LEHRER: Quick response to Senator Obama.

主持人：（对麦凯恩）快速回答奥巴马议员。

MCCAIN: It's well-known that I have not been elected Miss Congeniality in the United States Senate nor with the administration. I have opposed the president on spending, on climate change, on torture of prisoner, on - on Guantanamo Bay. On a -- on the way that the Iraq War was conducted. I have a long record and the American people know me very well and that is independent and a maverick of the Senate and I'm happy to say that I've got a partner that's a good maverick along with me now.

麦凯恩：众所周知我在美国议员和行政部门都不是好好先生。我曾经反对过（布什）总统的花销——在气候变化上，在虐囚上，在关塔那摩湾上，在——在伊拉克战争的执行方式上，我有很多这样的记录。美国人民也许对我在议会的独立和不结党的做法了解的很清楚。我很高兴地说现在我有一位很好的独立合作者了。




金融危机部分终于告一个段落了，接下来将是关于伊拉克战争的讨论。

punkxxx

LEHRER: All right. Let's go another subject. Lead question, two minutes to you, senator McCain. Much has been said about the lessons of Vietnam. What do you see as the lessons of Iraq?

主持人：好了，让我们开始另一个话题。引导问题，给你两分钟时间，麦凯恩议员。我们听说过很多关于越战的教训。你认为伊拉克（战争）的教训是什么？

MCCAIN: I think the lessons of Iraq are very clear that you cannot have a failed strategy that will then cause you to nearly lose a conflict. Our initial military success, we went in to Baghdad and everybody celebrated. And then the war was very badly mishandled. I went to Iraq in 2003 and came back and said, we've got to change this strategy. This strategy requires additional troops, it requires a fundamental change in strategy and I fought for it. And finally, we came up with a great general and a strategy that has succeeded.

麦凯恩：我认为伊拉克（战争）的教训很清楚，你不能做出错误的决策，（否则）它就会让你在斗争中失败。我们最初的军事胜利，我们进入了巴格达，每个人都为之庆祝。而之后的作战就被胡乱操作了。2003 年我去过一趟伊拉克，回来后我说道，我们得改变策略了。我们的新策略需要更多的部队，它意味着对旧策略的彻底改变，我为（这个新策略）而奋斗。最终，我们有了一位杰出的将军和最终获得了成功的策略。

This strategy has succeeded. And we are winning in Iraq. And we will come home with victory and with honor. And that withdrawal is the result of every counterinsurgency that succeeds.

这个策略成功了。我们在伊拉克即将胜利。而我们将带着胜利和荣誉回家。而我们的回家将是每一次成功镇压叛乱的结果。

MCCAIN: And I want to tell you that now that we will succeed and our troops will come home, and not in defeat, that we will see a stable ally in the region and a fledgling democracy.

麦凯恩：我想告诉你们的是，我们我们的队伍将带着胜利回家，而不是失败。我们将在那个地区（伊拉克）看到一个稳固的盟友和新的民主国家。

The consequences of defeat would have been increased Iranian influence. It would have been increase in sectarian violence. It would have been a wider war, which the United States of America might have had to come back.

而（在伊拉克）失败的后果是：伊朗的影响力将增大，宗派间的暴力冲突将更多，更大范围的战争将被触发，而美利坚合众国将不得不再回到战争。

So there was a lot at stake there. And thanks to this great general, David Petraeus, and the troops who serve under him, they have succeeded. And we are winning in Iraq, and we will come home. And we will come home as we have when we have won other wars and not in defeat.

所以那里有着我们相当多的利益。而多亏这位杰出的将军，大卫.佩崔斯，还有他手下的部队，他们获得了成功。我们将在伊拉克胜利并回家。而我们将像经历过其他那些战斗（注：指以前的胜利的战争）一样回家，而不是失败。

LEHRER: Two minutes, how you see the lessons of Iraq, Senator Obama.

主持人：两分钟，你如何看待伊拉克战争的教训，奥巴马议员？

OBAMA: Well, this is an area where Senator McCain and I have a fundamental difference because I think the first question is whether we should have gone into the war in the first place.

奥巴马：嗯，这是一个麦凯恩议员和我有着本质上区别的地方。因为我认为首要的问题是在最开始的时候我们应该开始战争吗？

Now six years ago, I stood up and opposed this war at a time when it was politically risky to do so because I said that not only did we not know how much it was going to cost, what our exit strategy might be, how it would affect our relationships around the world, and whether our intelligence was sound, but also because we hadn't finished the job in Afghanistan.

六年前，我站起来反对这场战争，当时这样做有着（巨大的）政治风险。我（当时）说不仅仅是因为我们不知道它（伊拉克战争）要花多少钱，不知道我们的撤退方针，不知道它会怎样影响我们和世界的关系，不知道我们的情报是否可靠，但更因为我们当时还没有完成在阿富汗的工作。

We hadn't caught bin Laden. We hadn't put al Qaeda to rest, and as a consequence, I thought that it was going to be a distraction. Now Senator McCain and President Bush had a very different judgment.

我们没有抓到本拉登。我们没有让基地组织（阿尔-凯达）停下来休息，而正因为此，我当时认为它（伊拉克战争）将转移我们的注意力。而当时麦凯恩议员和布什总统做出了完全不同的判断。

And I wish I had been wrong for the sake of the country and they had been right, but that's not the case. We've spent over $600 billion so far, soon to be $1 trillion. We have lost over 4,000 lives. We have seen 30,000 wounded, and most importantly, from a strategic national security perspective, al Qaeda is resurgent, stronger now than at any time since 2001.

而为了这个国家的利益，我希望我是错的，他们是对的，但事实情况却不是这样。我们已经花掉了6000多亿美元，很快就要1万亿美元了。我们失去了4000 多位（战士的）生命，我们看到了3万的伤员。而从一个民族的安全角度来说最重要的是，基地组织复活了，比从2001年来的任何时候都还要强大。

We took our eye off the ball. And not to mention that we are still spending $10 billion a month, when they have a $79 billion surplus, at a time when we are in great distress here at home, and we just talked about the fact that our budget is way overstretched and we are borrowing money from overseas to try to finance just some of the basic functions of our government.

我们把我们的注意力从（应该注意的地方）挪开了。更别说在现在我们在家遭到了一次大危难的时候，我们现在每个月还要花100亿美元（在伊拉克），而他们（伊拉克政府）有着790亿美元的盈余。我们刚才谈到我们的预算铺得太开的这个事实，我们现在为了维持我们政府运作的一些基本功能还要从海外（国家）借钱。

So I think the lesson to be drawn is that we should never hesitate to use military force, and I will not, as president, in order to keep the American people safe. But we have to use our military wisely. And we did not use our military wisely in Iraq.

所以我认为（伊拉克战争）引出的教训是我们绝不应该犹豫使用武力，如果我是美国总统，为了保护美国人民的安全，我也不会（犹豫）。但是我们必须明智地使用我们的武力。而我们没有在伊拉克明智地使用我们的武力。

LEHRER: Do you agree with that, the lesson of Iraq?

主持人：（对麦凯恩）你同意那个吗，伊拉克战争的教训？

MCCAIN: The next president of the United States is not going to have to address the issue as to whether we went into Iraq or not. The next president of the United States is going to have to decide how we leave, when we leave, and what we leave behind. That's the decision of the next president of the United States.

麦凯恩：下一届美国总统不是解决我们应不应该去伊拉克的问题。下一届的美国总统应该决定我们如何离开（伊拉克），而当我们离开时，我们留下了什么。那（才）是下一届美国总统应该决定的事。

Senator Obama said the surge could not work, said it would increase sectarian violence, said it was doomed to failure. Recently on a television program, he said it exceed our wildest expectations.

奥巴马议员说过(2007年的）增派部队不会起作用，说过那会增加教派间的暴力冲突，说过那注定要失败。在最近的一次电视节目上，他还说那（增兵伊拉克）超出了最疯狂的预期。

（注： Surge，这里指的是2007年布什总统计划向伊拉克增加部队，以维护巴格达和安巴尔省的稳定。安巴尔是伊拉克西部的一个省，首都是拉马迪。安巴尔是伊拉克境内最大的省份，与叙利亚、约旦和沙特阿拉伯接壤。在伊拉克战争之后，伊拉克的叛乱在安巴尔省内最为激烈，人民对占领军的敌对状态也特别强烈，所以直到今天，美国的武装部队仍然在为取得该地区的控制而费尽心思。安巴尔省内，特别是拉马迪和费卢杰两个城市，以其居民强烈的部落和宗教情节而闻名，甚至前总统萨达姆·侯塞因的政权都对该地区动荡的天性而保持高度的机警。）

But yet, after conceding that, he still says that he would oppose the surge if he had to decide that again today. Incredibly, incredibly Senator Obama didn't go to Iraq for 900 days and never asked for a meeting with General Petraeus.

而在他不情愿地让步后，他还在说如果今天再给他一次机会让他做决定，他将反对增兵。神奇的是，神奇的是奥巴马议员900天来（根本）没有去过伊拉克而且从没有要求过一次和佩崔斯将军的会面。

LEHRER: Well, let's go at some of these things...

主持人：好的，让我们讨论一下这些事情……

MCCAIN: Senator Obama is the chairperson of a committee that oversights NATO that's in Afghanistan. To this day, he has never had a hearing.

麦凯恩：（打断）奥巴马议员是一个监管北约在阿富汗的委员会的主席。直到今天，他还从没有举行过一次会议。

（注：这一次轮到奥巴马的尾巴被麦凯恩抓住了。正如刚才大家看到，奥巴马强烈抨击本拉登在逃，基地组织复活等，不料麦凯恩抖出奥巴马在阿富汗本有职务的这个事实。这样一来，奥巴马所攻击的阿富汗局面反而看起来是在攻击自己没做好工作了。而麦凯恩如果成为总统，他本来就要取消掉那些没有做好工作的政府部门和官员。）

LEHRER: What about that point?

主持人：（对奥巴马）对这一点你怎么说？

MCCAIN: I mean, it's remarkable.

麦凯恩：（打断）我指的是，这真是印象深刻啊。

LEHRER: All right. What about that point?

主持人：（打断）好了好了。（对奥巴马）对这一点你怎么说？

punkxxx

OBAMA: Which point? He raised a whole bunch of them.

奥巴马：哪一点？他抛出了一大批观点。

LEHRER: I know, OK, let's go to the latter point and we'll back up. The point about your not having been...

主持人：我知道，这样，让我们先谈（约翰.麦凯恩）的第二点然后我们再回来。是关于你一直没有…… （注：一直没有举行奥巴马负责的阿富汗的一个委员会的会议）

OBAMA: Look, I'm very proud of my vice presidential selection, Joe Biden, who is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and as he explains, and as John well knows, the issues of Afghanistan, the issues of Iraq, critical issues like that, don't go through my subcommittee because they're done as a committee as a whole.

奥巴马：听着，我一直为我的副总统候选人乔.拜登而骄傲。他是参议院外交委员会的主席，正如他所解释的，约翰你也知道，阿富汗的问题和伊拉克的问题以及类似的重要问题，并不通过我的小组委员会来解决，因为那些问题已经由委员会作为一个整体来解决了。

But that's Senate inside baseball. But let's get back to the core issue here. Senator McCain is absolutely right that the violence has been reduced as a consequence of the extraordinary sacrifice of our troops and our military families.

但那（注：指阿富汗和委员会的问题）是在转移话题（伊拉克战争）。让我们回到这里的核心问题。（伊拉克的）暴力事件减少了，麦凯恩议员在这点上完全正确，（但）那是我们的部队和我们军人的家庭做出了相当的牺牲的结果。

They have done a brilliant job, and General Petraeus has done a brilliant job. But understand, that was a tactic designed to contain the damage of the previous four years of mismanagement of this war.

他们，还有佩崔斯将军，做出了一项辉煌的成就。但要知道，那只是一项抑制（更多）破坏的战术，之前四年来的破坏，源自作战的管理不善。

And so John likes -- John, you like to pretend like the war started in 2007. You talk about the surge. The war started in 2003, and at the time when the war started, you said it was going to be quick and easy. You said we knew where the weapons of mass destruction were. You were wrong.

而约翰（麦凯恩）想要……约翰，你想让这战争看起来像是2007年开始的。你谈论增派部队。（但是）战争是2003年开始的，而在战争开始的时候，你说它（伊拉克战争）会很快很简单（地结束）。你说我们知道哪里有大杀伤性武器。（然而）你错了。

You said that we were going to be greeted as liberators. You were wrong. You said that there was no history of violence between Shia and Sunni. And you were wrong. And so my question is...

你说我们会像解放军一样受到欢迎。你错了。你说什叶派和逊尼派之间没有暴力冲突的历史，你又错了。所以，问题是……

(CROSSTALK)
（插话）

LEHRER: Senator Obama...

主持人：奥巴马议员……

OBAMA: ... of judgment, of whether or not -- of whether or not -- if the question is who is best-equipped as the next president to make good decisions about how we use our military, how we make sure that we are prepared and ready for the next conflict, then I think we can take a look at our judgment.

奥巴马：……问题是判断力，关于是否……是否……（主持人中间多次插话，奥巴马不予理会，继续说了下去）呃，如果要问作为下一任总统，谁整装待发，谁能对武力的使用做出更好的决策，如何确保我们为下一次冲突做好了准备，那么我认为我们要看看我们的判断力。

LEHRER: I have got a lot on the plate here...

主持人：我已经有很多需要（你们）讨论的……

（注：on (one's) plate 需要完成工作或任务）

MCCAIN: I'm afraid Senator Obama doesn't understand the difference between a tactic and a strategy. But the important -- I'd like to tell you, two Fourths of July ago I was in Baghdad. General Petraeus invited Senator Lindsey Graham and me to attend a ceremony where 688 brave young Americans, whose enlistment had expired, were reenlisting to stay and fight for Iraqi freedom and American freedom.

麦凯恩：我恐怕奥巴马议员不清楚一个（局部）战术和一个（全局性）战略的区别。但重要的是……我想告诉你，两年前我在巴格达，佩崔斯将军邀请林德西.格雷厄姆议员和我去参加一个仪式。在那个仪式上，688位勇敢的美国年轻人，他们服役期已经满了，（但）他们延长了服役期并留下来为伊拉克人和美国人的自由而战斗。

（注：Fourths of July，美国独立纪念日，七月四日。）

I was honored to be there. I was honored to speak to those troops. And you know, afterwards, we spent a lot of time with them. And you know what they said to us? They said, let us win. They said, let us win. We don't want our kids coming back here.

我很荣幸地当时在那里。我很荣幸能向那些部队讲话。正如你所知道的，之后，我们和他们（部队）在一起呆了很长时间。你知道他们对我们说什么吗？他们说：“让我们去争取胜利”。他们说：“让我们去争取胜利”。我们不希望我们的孩子（就这样）回来。

And this strategy, and this general, they are winning. Senator Obama refuses to acknowledge that we are winning in Iraq.

而这个战略（注：指留在伊拉克及增派部队），还有将军，他们即将取得胜利。奥巴马议员拒绝承认我们现在在伊拉克即将取得胜利。

OBAMA: That's not true.

奥巴马：那不是真的。

MCCAIN: They just passed an electoral...

麦凯恩：他们刚通过了一项选举……

OBAMA: That's not true.

奥巴马：那不是真的。

MCCAIN: An election law just in the last few days. There is social, economic progress, and a strategy, a strategy of going into an area, clearing and holding, and the people of the country then become allied with you. They inform on the bad guys. And peace comes to the country, and prosperity.

麦凯恩：就在最近几天通过了一项选举法。那里在社会和经济上都有进步，还有（我们的）一项战略，就是进入一个地区，清除（敌人）并占领它，而（之后）那个国家的人们将成为我们的盟友。他们（伊拉克人）向我们揭发坏蛋。而和平和繁荣将降临这个国家。

（注： inform on sbd: to inform on is to give incriminating information to the authorities about someone: Only two people knew, and it must have been you that told the police - Benny would never inform on his brother.）

That's what's happening in Iraq, and it wasn't a tactic.

那就是伊拉克正在发生的。而那可不是一个（局部的）战术。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Let me see...

主持人：让我说……

OBAMA: Jim, Jim, this is a big...

奥巴马：吉姆，吉姆，这是一个巨大的……

MCCAIN: It was a stratagem. And that same strategy will be employed in Afghanistan by this great general. And Senator Obama, who after promising not to vote to cut off funds for the troops, did the incredible thing of voting to cut off the funds for the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

麦凯恩：这是一个战略。同样的战略将被这位杰出的将军用在阿富汗上面。而奥巴马议员，在承诺不会投票反对削减部队拨款后，做了一件让人难以置信的事情，他投票支持削减在伊拉克和阿富汗部队的拨款。

OBAMA: Jim, there are a whole bunch of things we have got to answer. First of all, let's talk about this troop funding issue because John always brings this up. Senator McCain cut -- Senator McCain opposed funding for troops in legislation that had a timetable, because he didn't believe in a timetable.

奥巴马：吉姆，我得回答一整大批东西。首先，让我们谈谈部队拨款的问题，因为约翰（麦凯恩）总是把它提出来。麦凯恩议员削减……麦凯恩议员在有时间表时反对给部队的拨款立法，因为他不相信有一个时间表。（注：这一点上，2004年的总统辩论上，布什的观点和麦凯恩也是一样的。）

I opposed funding a mission that had no timetable, and was open-ended, giving a blank check to George Bush. We had a difference on the timetable. We didn't have a difference on whether or not we were going to be funding troops.

我反对对一个没有时间表的任务拨款，而且是开放式的（任务），这给了乔治.布什自由处理权。我们（只是）在时间表上有分歧。我们并没有在是否对部队拨款上面有分歧。

We had a legitimate difference, and I absolutely understand the difference between tactics and strategy. And the strategic question that the president has to ask is not whether or not we are employing a particular approach in the country once we have made the decision to be there. The question is, was this wise?

我们有一个真正的分歧，而我完全理解战术和战略的区别。而一旦做了决定（进攻）伊拉克，总统要问的战略性问题不是我们该不该在伊拉克执行一个特殊的任务。问题是，那（进攻）明智吗？

We have seen Afghanistan worsen, deteriorate. We need more troops there. We need more resources there. Senator McCain, in the rush to go into Iraq, said, you know what? We've been successful in Afghanistan. There is nobody who can pose a threat to us there.

我们已经看到阿富汗（的局势）变糟，恶化。那里需要更多部队，需要更多资源。麦凯恩议员在（支持）袭击伊拉克时说，你们知道（他说）什么吗？“我们在阿富汗已经胜利了，那里没人能威胁到我们了。”

This is a time when bin Laden was still out, and now they've reconstituted themselves. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates himself acknowledges the war on terrorism started in Afghanistan and it needs to end there.

那是本拉登还在逍遥法外的时候，而现在他们已经重组了。国防部长罗伯特.盖茨他自己也承认反恐战争在阿富汗开始（打响），而我们需要在那里结束它。