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楼主: punkxxx

2008 美国总统竞选第一场辩论中英文对照

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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:30:51 | 显示全部楼层
But we can't do it if we are not willing to give Iraq back its country. Now, what I've said is we should end this war responsibly. We should do it in phases. But in 16 months we should be able to reduce our combat troops, put -- provide some relief to military families and our troops and bolster our efforts in Afghanistan so that we can capture and kill bin Laden and crush al Qaeda.

奥巴马:但我们还不能做那个(结束阿富汗战争),如果我们不愿把伊拉克还给他们自己的国家的话。现在,我刚才所说的就是我们应该负责任地结束这场战争了。我们应该有阶段性计划。在16个月的时间里我们应该能减少我们的作战部队,给军人家庭和我们的部队一些调剂。支援我们在阿富汗的努力,这样我们能抓住本拉登并毙掉他,并摧毁基地组织。

And right now, the commanders in Afghanistan, as well as Admiral Mullen, have acknowledged that we don't have enough troops to deal with Afghanistan because we still have more troops in Iraq than we did before the surge.

而现在,阿富汗驻军司令,还有海军上将麦克.马伦,都说我们没有足够的队伍来处理阿富汗(的任务),因为我们现在在伊拉克的部队仍然比(2007年)增兵时多。

MCCAIN: Admiral Mullen suggests that Senator Obama's plan is dangerous for America.

麦凯恩:马伦上将认为奥巴马议员的计划对美国很危险。

OBAMA: That's not the case.

奥巴马:那是另一个话题。

MCCAIN: That's what ...

麦凯恩:那就是……

OBAMA: What he said was a precipitous...

奥巴马:他所说的是一个仓促的……

MCCAIN: That's what Admiral Mullen said.

麦凯恩:那就是马伦上将所说的。

OBAMA: ... withdrawal would be dangerous. He did not say that. That's not true.

奥巴马:……撤退是危险的(决策)。他没有说过那个。那不是真的。

MCCAIN: And also General Petraeus said the same thing. Osama bin Laden and General Petraeus have one thing in common that I know of, they both said that Iraq is the central battleground.

麦凯恩:还有彼得雷乌斯将军也说了同样的话。我知道奥萨玛.本.拉登和彼得雷乌斯将军有一个共同点,他们都说伊拉克是战斗中心。

Now General Petraeus has praised the successes, but he said those successes are fragile and if we set a specific date for withdrawal -- and by the way, Senator Obama's original plan, they would have been out last spring before the surge ever had a chance to succeed.

现在彼得雷乌斯将军高度评价了(在伊拉克的)成就。但他也说这些成就非常脆肉,而如果我们为撤退设定了一个确定的日期——顺便说一句,这就是奥巴马议员最初的计划,那么去年春天,驻伊部队就已经得退场了,而(2007年的)增兵将没有机会实施并成功。

And I'm -- I'm -- understand why Senator Obama was surprised and said that the surge succeeded beyond his wildest expectations.

而我……我……理解为什么奥巴马议员会感到惊讶,还有他说增兵的成功超出了他最疯狂的期望。

MCCAIN: It didn't exceed beyond mine, because I know that that's a strategy that has worked and can succeed. But if we snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and adopt Senator Obama's plan, then we will have a wider war and it will make things more complicated throughout the region, including in Afghanistan.

麦凯恩:而那并不让我意外,因为我知道那起过作用的战略能够成功。但如果我们采用了奥巴马议员的建议,在到达胜利的大门口被击败,那我们将面临更广阔范围的战争,那会让那个(中东)地区的局势更加复杂化,包括在阿富汗(的局势)。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:31:13 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: Afghanistan, lead -- a new -- a new lead question. Now, having resolved Iraq, we'll move to Afghanistan.

主持人:阿富汗,引导……新的……新的引导问题。现在,在解决了伊拉克(的问题)后,我们将前往阿富汗。

(LAUGHTER)
(笑声)

And it goes to you, Senator Obama, and it's a -- it picks up on a point that's already been made. Do you think more troops -- more U.S. troops should be sent to Afghanistan, how many, and when?

而这个问题轮到你了,奥巴马议员。它是一个……它深入讨论我们刚才谈到的一点。你认为更多的部队——更多的美国部队应该被派往阿富汗吗?多少?什么时候?

OBAMA: Yes, I think we need more troops. I've been saying that for over a year now.

奥巴马:是的,我认为我们需要更多部队。我谈这个已经一整年了。

And I think that we have to do it as quickly as possible, because it's been acknowledged by the commanders on the ground the situation is getting worse, not better.

我认为我们还得尽快做这件事情,因为战场上的指挥官们承认局势正在恶化,而不是变好。

We had the highest fatalities among U.S. troops this past year than at any time since 2002. And we are seeing a major offensive taking place -- Al Qaida and Taliban crossing the border and attacking our troops in a brazen fashion. They are feeling emboldened.

过去这一年比从2002年来的任何时候美军的伤亡都要高。我们看到主要的进攻正在发生——基地组织还有塔利班横越国界,以无耻的招数攻击我们的部队。他们的胆子大起来了。

And we cannot separate Afghanistan from Iraq, because what our commanders have said is we don't have the troops right now to deal with Afghanistan.

而我们不能将阿富汗(的问题)和伊拉克(的问题)分离开来,因为我们的指挥官说过了我们现在在阿富汗没有足够的部队。

So I would send two to three additional brigades to Afghanistan. Now, keep in mind that we have four times the number of troops in Iraq, where nobody had anything to do with 9/11 before we went in, where, in fact, there was no Al Qaida before we went in, but we have four times more troops there than we do in Afghanistan.

所以如果是我,我会派遣额外三个旅去阿富汗。现在,(我想让你们)记住我们现在在伊拉克有着四倍(于阿富汗)的部队,而在我们去那里(伊拉克)之前,那里没有人和911有关。实际上,那里在我们去之前是没有基地组织的,而我们却在那里布置了四倍于阿富汗的部队。

(注:美国人将部队大批派往伊拉克是有原因的。除了控制中东石油外,美国人还寄希望在那里开辟战场,吸引全球所有的恐怖分子,从而在那里将中东的反美武装一网打尽。这一招其实就是围魏救赵。这样可以避免在美国本土作战。这也是为何麦凯恩说,奥巴马还没有理解这个战略,而如果从伊拉克撤兵,战场必然会扩大化。当然,奥巴马其实是理解这个战略的,但是他战略是各个击破,先消灭阿富汗的反美武装,然后再考虑其他地区。)

And that is a strategic mistake, because every intelligence agency will acknowledge that Al Qaida is the greatest threat against the United States and that Secretary of Defense Gates acknowledged the central front -- that the place where we have to deal with these folks is going to be in Afghanistan and in Pakistan.

而那是一个战略性的错误,因为每个情报机构都承认基地组织是对美国最大的威胁,国防部长盖茨也承认前线的中心——我们必须得在那里解决基地组织——是阿富汗和巴基斯坦。

So here's what we have to do comprehensively, though. It's not just more troops. We have to press the Afghan government to make certain that they are actually working for their people. And I've said this to President Karzai.

所以这是我们必须得彻底做的事情,不仅仅是要更多的部队。我们得对阿富汗政府施压,确保他们正在为他们的人民而工作。这个我已经对卡尔扎伊总统说过了。

Number two, we've got to deal with a growing poppy trade that has exploded over the last several years.

第二,我们必须得处理(阿富汗)在过去数年间暴涨的鸦片交易。

(注:阿富汗70%的经济来源都靠种植鸦片,而鸦片对于我们中国人来说,更有不同寻常的历史。在糜烂的清朝,多少人自甘堕落,抽吸大烟。看看历史上的照片,那个时期的中国人,一个个皮包骨头,面黄肌瘦。难怪那时我们被人称为东亚病夫。)

Number three, we've got to deal with Pakistan, because Al Qaida and the Taliban have safe havens in Pakistan, across the border in the northwest regions, and although, you know, under George Bush, with the support of Senator McCain, we've been giving them $10 billion over the last seven years, they have not done what needs to be done to get rid of those safe havens.

第三、我们必须处理巴基斯坦了,因为基地组织和塔利班在巴基斯坦有着安全的避难所,就在越过(阿富汗)边境在巴基斯坦的西北区域。尽管,你也知道,在乔治.布什以及支持他的麦凯恩议员的政策下,在过去七年我们总共给了他们100亿美元。他们没有做那些我们需要他们做的事情,即端掉那些避难所。

And until we do, Americans here at home are not going to be safe.

而除非我们这样做,否则美国,就在我们的家这里,将不会安全。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:31:32 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: Afghanistan, Senator McCain?

主持人:(关于)阿富汗,麦凯恩议员。

MCCAIN: First of all, I won't repeat the mistake that I regret enormously, and that is, after we were able to help the Afghan freedom fighters and drive the Russians out of Afghanistan, we basically washed our hands of the region.

麦凯恩:首先,我不会重复那个我非常后悔的错误,即:在我们有能力帮助阿富汗为自由而战的战士们和把俄罗斯人驱逐出阿富汗后,我们却在那个地区洗手不干了。

And the result over time was the Taliban, Al Qaida, and a lot of the difficulties we are facing today. So we can't ignore those lessons of history.

而随着时间的推移,这后果就是我们今天面临的塔利班、基地组织还有许许多多的问题。所以我们不能忽略这些历史上的教训。

Now, on this issue of aiding Pakistan, if you're going to aim a gun at somebody, George Shultz, our great secretary of state, told me once, you'd better be prepared to pull the trigger.

现在,在援助巴基斯坦的问题上。我们的杰出的国务卿乔治.舒尔茨(任期1982年7月到1989年1月)一次曾经告诉过我,如果你要拿着枪对准某人,那你最好准备好按下扳机。

I'm not prepared at this time to cut off aid to Pakistan. So I'm not prepared to threaten it, as Senator Obama apparently wants to do, as he has said that he would announce military strikes into Pakistan.

我现在这个时候还没有准备好砍掉对巴基斯坦的援助。因此我还没有准备好去威胁他,而奥巴马议员显然想这么做,正如他说过他会对巴基斯坦进行军事打击。

We've got to get the support of the people of -- of Pakistan. He said that he would launch military strikes into Pakistan.

我们还需要巴基斯坦人民的支持。而他却说他要对巴基斯坦进行军事打击。

Now, you don't do that. You don't say that out loud. If you have to do things, you have to do things, and you work with the Pakistani government.

你没有必要这么做,你不需要大声的把它说出来。如果你真得做点什么,你就做点什么,并和巴基斯坦政府合作。

Now, the new president of Pakistan, Kardari (sic), has got his hands full. And this area on the border has not been governed since the days of Alexander the Great.

现在,巴基斯坦的新任总统,卡尔达里,已经忙得不可开交了。而在巴基斯坦边境的这个地区自从亚历山大大帝(公元前336年)开始起就无人管理。

I've been to Waziristan. I can see how tough that terrain is. It's ruled by a handful of tribes.

我去过一回瓦齐里斯坦。那里的地形非常苛刻。它被一些部落占据着。

(注:瓦齐里斯坦,巴基斯坦西北部山区,靠阿富汗边界,被分成北瓦齐里斯坦和南瓦齐里斯坦 。此地区于1947年成为巴基斯坦一部分。)

And, yes, Senator Obama calls for more troops, but what he doesn't understand, it's got to be a new strategy, the same strategy that he condemned in Iraq. It's going to have to be employed in Afghanistan.

是的,奥巴马议员呼吁更多的部队,但他所不理解的,是(在阿富汗)应该是一个新的战略,即饱受他责难的我们在伊拉克的战略。那应该用于阿富汗。

And we're going to have to help the Pakistanis go into these areas and obtain the allegiance of the people. And it's going to be tough. They've intermarried with Al Qaida and the Taliban. And it's going to be tough. But we have to get the cooperation of the people in those areas.

而我们得帮助巴基斯坦人进入这些地区(边境区域)并得到那些人的效忠。而那将是一项艰巨的任务。(边境)那些人已经和基地组织还有塔利班通婚。那将非常艰巨,但我们必须得到那些区域的人民的合作。

And the Pakistanis are going to have to understand that that bombing in the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad was a signal from the terrorists that they don't want that government to cooperate with us in combating the Taliban and jihadist elements.

而巴基斯坦人将明白,在伊斯兰堡的万豪大酒店的爆炸是一个信号,它意味着恐怖分子不想让政府和我们合作对抗塔利班和讨伐(恐怖分子)。

So we've got a lot of work to do in Afghanistan. But I'm confident, now that General Petraeus is in the new position of command, that we will employ a strategy which not only means additional troops -- and, by the way, there have been 20,000 additional troops, from 32,000 to 53,000, and there needs to be more.

所以在阿富汗我们有很多事情要做。但我相信,现在彼得雷乌斯将军就任了司令部的新的职位,我们将执行一项不仅仅意味着增加额外部队的战略——顺便说一句,那里已经增派了2万多部队,从3万2千到5万3千,而那里需要更多部队。

So it's not just the addition of troops that matters. It's a strategy that will succeed. And Pakistan is a very important element in this. And I know how to work with him. And I guarantee you I would not publicly state that I'm going to attack them.

所以那不仅仅是增派额外部队的事情。那是一项必将成功的战略。在这个战略中,巴基斯坦将是一个重要的因素。我知道怎么和他们一起合作。我向你们保证,我不会(像奥巴马议员那样)公开声明我要进攻他们。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:31:46 | 显示全部楼层
OBAMA: Nobody talked about attacking Pakistan. Here's what I said. And if John wants to disagree with this, he can let me know.

奥巴马:没人说要进攻巴基斯坦。我是这样说的,如果约翰(麦凯恩)不同意,他可以说出来。

that, if the United States has Al Qaida, bin Laden, top-level lieutenants in our sights, and Pakistan is unable or unwilling to act, then we should take them out.

那就是,如果美国在视野内发现了基地组织、本拉登或者基地组织的头子,而巴基斯坦不能或者不愿行动,那我们就要把他们(基地组织)端掉。

(注:奥巴马要发飙了,他不管巴基斯坦愿意不愿意,就要冲到巴基斯坦的国境内杀人。这就是他的战略。)

Now, I think that's the right strategy; I think that's the right policy.

我认为那是正确的战略;我认为那是正确的政策。

And, John, I -- you're absolutely right that presidents have to be prudent in what they say. But, you know, coming from you, who, you know, in the past has threatened extinction for North Korea and, you know, sung songs about bombing Iran, I don't know, you know, how credible that is.
而,约翰,我……关于总统要谨慎发言这一点上你完全正确。但是,你知道,你的发言,你知道的,过去你威胁说要灭绝朝鲜,还有,你知道,叫嚣着要轰炸伊朗,你知道那是多么的难以置信。

I think this is the right strategy. Now, Senator McCain is also right that it's difficult. This is not an easy situation. You've got cross-border attacks against U.S. troops.

我认为这是正确的战略。这很难办到,麦凯恩议员现在在这点上也是正确的。这不是一个简单的情况,(因为)你需要穿越国界去攻击反美武装。

And we've got a choice. We could allow our troops to just be on the defensive and absorb those blows again and again and again, if Pakistan is unwilling to cooperate, or we have to start making some decisions.

而我们面临一个选择:一是如果巴基斯坦不愿意合作,我们就让我们的部队仅仅防守,不断不断不断地承受那些突然袭击;二是我们开始下一些决定。

And the problem, John, with the strategy that's been pursued was that, for 10 years, we coddled Musharraf, we alienated the Pakistani population, because we were anti-democratic. We had a 20th-century mindset that basically said, "Well, you know, he may be a dictator, but he's our dictator."

而问题是,10年来,约翰所执行的战略则是惯坏了穆沙拉夫。由于我们的反民主,我们疏远了巴基斯坦人民。我们用的是一个20世纪的观点:“嗯,你知道他也许是一个独裁者,但他是我们的独裁者。”

And as a consequence, we lost legitimacy in Pakistan. We spent $10 billion. And in the meantime, they weren't going after Al Qaida, and they are more powerful now than at any time since we began the war in Afghanistan.

这样做的后果是,我们在巴基斯坦失去了合法性。我们花掉了100亿美元。而同时,他们却没有抓捕基地组织成员,现在他们(基地组织)比阿富汗战争开始以来的时候时候都要强悍。

That's going to change when I'm president of the United States.

如果我是美国总统,我会改变那样的战略。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:32:01 | 显示全部楼层
MCCAIN: I -- I don't think that Senator Obama understands that there was a failed state in Pakistan when Musharraf came to power. Everybody who was around then, and had been there, and knew about it knew that it was a failed state.

麦凯恩:我……我不认为奥巴马议员知道当穆沙拉夫上台时,就有一个(巴基斯坦的)省控制不了。所有当时在的人,去过那里的人,都知道那(边境地区)是一个不受控制的省。

But let me tell you, you know, this business about bombing Iran and all that, let me tell you my record.

但让我来告诉你,你知道的,关于说要轰炸伊朗还有(你谈到的)所有的那些,让我告诉你我的履历。

Back in 1983, when I was a brand-new United States congressman, the one -- the person I admired the most and still admire the most, Ronald Reagan, wanted to send Marines into Lebanon.

远在1983年,当时我是美国国会的新人,那位……那个我现在仍然最敬佩的人,罗纳德.里根(注:罗纳德·威尔逊·里根,美国第40任总统,1981年-1989年),想要派遣海军陆战队去黎巴嫩。

(注:1983年的黎巴嫩局势

1982年6月9日,叙利亚和以色列各出动一百余架飞机。以色列一举击落八十三架叙利亚飞机,摧毁了叙利亚部署在贝卡谷地和叙黎边界的导弹设施,使叙军遭到重大损失。
1982年12月,苏联加强了它在中东的活动,大力援助叙利亚,向它提供从未在它本土或华约国之外部署的萨姆——五防空导弹和 SC——2l导弹,并派去了七千多名军事和技术人员,使叙利亚军事力量迅速得到恢复和加强。
1983年10月23日和11月4日,美国和法国驻贝鲁特军队总部和以色列驻苏尔军队总部先后被炸,二百三十九名美国军人和数十名以色列士兵被炸死。
1983年11月,美国和以色列高层在一次美以首脑会谈中,决定对驻黎巴嫩的叙利亚军采取军事行动。
1983年12月2日,以色列出动飞机轰炸了叙利亚军队、巴勒斯坦游击队和德鲁兹民兵在黎巴嫩中部山区的阵地。
1983年12月4日,美国从它在黎沿海游弋的两艘航空母舰上出动二十八架飞机,轰炸了叙利亚军队在舒夫山区和贝鲁特——大马士革国际公路附近的阵地,使叙军遭到一些损失,美国三架飞机被击落。
1983年12月5日,美国军舰炮击了德鲁兹民兵的阵地。)

And I saw that, and I saw the situation, and I stood up, and I voted against that, because I was afraid that they couldn't make peace in a place where 300 or 400 or several hundred Marines would make a difference. Tragically, I was right: Nearly 300 Marines lost their lives in the bombing of the barracks.

而我看清了,我看清了当时的局势,于是我站起来投票反对了它(派兵去黎巴嫩的提议),因为我担心在那个地方,他们不能讲和,而300或者400或几百名士兵不能改变局势。悲剧性的是,我猜对了:几乎300名士兵在一次兵营的爆炸中失去了他们的生命。

And then we had Somalia -- then we had the first Gulf War. I supported -- I supported that.

然后就是索马里——之后是第一次海湾战争。我支持了——我支持了它。

I supported us going into Bosnia, when a number of my own party and colleagues was against that operation in Bosnia. That was the right thing to do, to stop genocide and to preserve what was necessary inside of Europe.

我支持派兵去波斯尼亚。当时许多共和党人和我的同僚们都反对在波斯尼亚的行动。但那是正确的行动,去阻止大屠杀,并保留欧洲内重要的(一个民族)。

(注:波斯尼亚,南斯拉夫中西部的一地区。7世纪塞族人定居于此,12世纪成为一个独立国家。1483年以后波斯尼亚被土耳其控制,后来被奥匈帝国吞并。)

I supported what we did in Kosovo. I supported it because ethnic cleansing and genocide was taking place there.

我支持我们后来在科索沃的行动。我支持是因为当时那里正在发生种族清洗和大屠杀。

And I have a record -- and Somalia, I opposed that we should turn -- turn the force in Somalia from a peacekeeping force into a peacemaking force, which they were not capable of.

而我的履历——在索马里,我反对把……把在索马里的维和部队变为调和部队。我们没有能力调和。

So I have a record. I have a record of being involved in these national security issues, which involve the highest responsibility and the toughest decisions that any president can make, and that is to send our young men and women into harm's way.

所以我有(相当的)履历,涉入了这些民族安全问题的履历。这些问题包括了任何一个总统的最高的责任和能做出的最艰难的决定——即,将我们的青年男女送入火海。

And I'll tell you, I had a town hall meeting in Wolfeboro, New Hampshire, and a woman stood up and she said, "Senator McCain, I want you to do me the honor of wearing a bracelet with my son's name on it."

我要告诉你们,我参加了新罕布什尔州汉普郡的沃尔夫保罗一次市民大会,当时一位妇女站起来说:“麦凯恩议员,我希望你能赏脸将这个手镯戴上,那上面有我儿子的名字”。

(注:新罕布什尔州:美国东北部一个州,位于佛蒙特和缅因之间。被认为是1788年最初十三个殖民地之一。于1603年首先被发现,17世纪20年代至 30年代来自马萨诸塞的殖民者在此定居,1741年成为一个独立的殖民地。新罕布什尔州是最先宣布脱离英国而独立并建立自己的政府(1776年1月)的一个殖民地。康科德是其首府,曼彻斯特是最大城市。人口1,113,915)

He was 22 years old and he was killed in combat outside of Baghdad, Matthew Stanley, before Christmas last year. This was last August, a year ago. And I said, "I will -- I will wear his bracelet with honor."

她的儿子叫马太.斯坦尼,22岁,在去年圣诞节前,死在了巴格达郊外的一次战斗中。具体时间是去年八月份。我说:“当然——我为戴着你的儿子的手镯而感到骄傲。”

And this was August, a year ago. And then she said, "But, Senator McCain, I want you to do everything -- promise me one thing, that you'll do everything in your power to make sure that my son's death was not in vain."

这就是去年八月发生的。然后她又说:“但是麦凯恩议员,答应我一件事——我希望你尽一切努力,尽你能力范围内的一切努力让我的儿子没有白白死去。”

That means that that mission succeeds, just like those young people who re-enlisted in Baghdad, just like the mother I met at the airport the other day whose son was killed. And they all say to me that we don't want defeat.

那意味着那个任务(伊拉克战争)的胜利,就像那些在巴格达延长服役期限的年轻人,就像另一天我在机场遇到的另一位失去儿子的母亲,他们都告诉我我们不能输。

MCCAIN: A war that I was in, where we had an Army, that it wasn't through any fault of their own, but they were defeated. And I know how hard it is for that -- for an Army and a military to recover from that. And it did and we will win this one and we won't come home in defeat and dishonor and probably have to go back if we fail.

在我参加过的一场战争中,当时我们的部队没有犯下任何错误,但却(由于错误的战略指挥而)遭到了失败。我知道那是多么的困难,对于部队还有军方,多么难以走出那阴影。而我们得赢这场战争(伊拉克战争),我们不能带着失败回家,我们不能蒙羞,而如果我们失败了,我们可能还不得不再回去。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:32:15 | 显示全部楼层
OBAMA: Jim, let me just make a point. I've got a bracelet, too, from Sergeant - from the mother of Sergeant Ryan David Jopeck (ph), given to me in grain bin green bay. She asked me, can you please make sure another mother is not going through what I'm going through.

奥巴马:吉姆,让我指出一点来。我也得到了一条手镯,是中士——中士赖安.大卫.杰佩克的母亲在绿湾粮仓给我的。她对我说,你能让别的母亲不会遭受我所遭受的(悲剧)吗?

(注:
绿湾(Green Bay)是位于美国威斯康星州布朗县的一座城市,也是该县的县治所在。根据美国人口调查局2000年统计,共有人口41,591,其中白人占85.86%、亚裔美国人占3.76%、印第安人占3.28%、非裔美国人占1.38%。
威斯康星州,威斯康星州美国中北部一州。1848年作为第三十个州加入。首先由法国殖民者建立,1763年割让给大不列颠,1787年成为西北地区的一部分。麦迪逊市是该州首府,密尔沃基市是最大城市。人口4,906,745)

No U.S. soldier ever dies in vain because they're carrying out the missions of their commander in chief. And we honor all the service that they've provided. Our troops have performed brilliantly. The question is for the next president, are we making good judgments about how to keep America safe precisely because sending our military into battle is such an enormous step.

没有一个美国士兵是白白牺牲的,因为他们在执行他们的总司令的任务。我为他们所作出的一切贡献而感到光荣。我们的队伍一直以来表现优秀。对下一届总统来说,问题是我们是否作出了正确的判断以精确地确保美国的安全,因为把部队派上战场是如此重大的一步。

And the point that I originally made is that we took our eye off Afghanistan, we took our eye off the folks who perpetrated 9/11, they are still sending out videotapes and Senator McCain, nobody is talking about defeat in Iraq, but I have to say we are having enormous problems in Afghanistan because of that decision.

而我最初指出的一点是我们把注意力从阿富汗转移了,我们把注意力从那些犯下911罪行的人们身上转移了,他们现在还在送出(基地组织的)录像带。而麦凯恩议员,没有人说(我们)在伊拉克是失败,但我得说的是由于那个决定,我们现在在阿富汗正面临严峻的问题。

And it is not true you have consistently been concerned about what happened in Afghanistan. At one point, while you were focused on Iraq, you said well, we can "muddle through" Afghanistan. You don't muddle through the central front on terror and you don't muddle through going after bin Laden. You don't muddle through stamping out the Taliban.

还有,关于你一直在关注阿富汗所发生的也不是真的。当你正聚焦伊拉克的时候,你说:嗯,我们可以“应付过去”阿富汗。你不能应付过去反恐的前沿阵地中心,不能应付过去追捕本拉登,不能应付过去剿灭塔利班。

I think that is something we have to take seriously. And when I'm president, I will.

我认为那是我们必须得认真对待的事情。而当我是总统时,我会的。

LEHRER: New ...

主持人:新的……

MCCAIN: You might think that with that kind of concern that Senator Obama would have gone to Afghanistan, particularly given his responsibilities as a subcommittee chairman. By the way, when I'm subcommittee chairman, we take up the issues under my subcommittee. But the important thing is -- the important thing is I visited Afghanistan and I traveled to Waziristan and I traveled to these places and I know what our security requirements are. I know what our needs are. So the point is that we will prevail in Afghanistan, but we need the new strategy and we need it to succeed. But the important thing is, if we suffer defeat in Iraq, which General Petraeus predicts we will, if we adopted Senator Obama's set date for withdrawal, then that will have a calamitous effect in Afghanistan and American national security interests in the region. Senator Obama doesn't seem to understand there is a connected between the two.

(注:这一段在上面那位兄台的博客中不知为何没有。)
麦凯恩:你们也许会认为在那样的关心下,麦凯恩议员会去阿富汗,特别是履行他作为他那个(分管阿富汗事务的)小组委员会主席的职责,而他没有。顺便说一下,当我是我那个小组委员会的主席时,我们承担了我那的小组委员会的事务。重要的是——重要的是我去过阿富汗,我去过瓦齐里斯坦,我去过那些地方。我知道我们的安全需要是什么。我知道我们需要什么。所以我要说,我们将会在阿富汗成功,但我们需要新的战略来达到成功。但重要的是,如果我们采用了奥巴马议员的建议,即为撤退设定一个日期,我们将如彼得雷乌斯将军所预料的那样,在伊拉克失败。那将对阿富汗还有美国民族在那个地区的安全利益造成灾难性的影响。奥巴马议员似乎并没有理解这两个(伊拉克和阿富汗)之间的联系。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:32:32 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: I have some good news and bad news for the two of you. You all are even on time, which is remarkable, considering we've been going at it ...

主持人:我有一些好消息和一些坏消息给你们两位。你们两位用掉的时间都差不多,这很不错,考虑到我们一直是在全力以赴……

OBAMA: A testimony to you, Jim.

奥巴马:对你来说那是显而易见的事实,吉姆。



注:这句话省略掉了That is。要完整地理解这句话,应该这么理解:
That is a testimony to you, Jim.
用另一种罗嗦的方式来描述:吉姆,我们两人所用掉的时间差不多这个事实,显而易见,你是很清楚的,因为你有记录。

testimony指在法庭上的证据。

奥巴马此话,似乎把主持人吉姆捧成了法官,这句话被人指出有马屁的嫌疑。因为法官并不是这位主持人,法官是每一个美国人。还有,我感觉上奥巴马无论是在主持人说这句话之前还是之后都经常插话,他用掉的时间应该比麦凯恩多。

我看到这里时,渐渐地开始不大信任奥巴马了。



LEHRER: I don't know about that. But the bad news is all my little five minute things have run over, so, anyhow, we'll adjust as we get there. But the amount of time is even.

主持人:我不知道。但坏消息是我们的每个5分钟(自由讨论阶段)都超时了,嗯,不管怎样,我们得在后面做一点调整了。但给你们双方的时间都是均等的。

New lead question. And it goes two minutes to you, Senator McCain, what is your reading on the threat to Iran right now to the security of the United States?

新的引导问题。这两分钟是你的,麦凯恩议员,你如何解读当前伊朗对美国安全的威胁?

MCCAIN: My reading of the threat from Iran is that if Iran acquires nuclear weapons, it is an existential threat to the State of Israel and to other countries in the region because the other countries in the region will feel compelling requirement to acquire nuclear weapons as well.

麦凯恩:我对来自伊朗的威胁的解读是如果伊朗获得了核武器,它将是对以色列和周边地区的实际威胁,因为在那个地区的其他国家将感到迫切的需要去同样获得核武器。

Now we cannot a second Holocaust. Let's just make that very clear. What I have proposed for a long time, and I've had conversation with foreign leaders about forming a league of democracies, let's be clear and let's have some straight talk. The Russians are preventing significant action in the United Nations Security Council.

而我们不能允许第二次(对犹太人的)大屠杀。让我们明确那一点。很长时间来我一直有个建议,而且我已经和国外的领导人有过对话,即关于构建一个民主国家的联盟,让我们(民主国家们)干净利落点,并多一些直接对话。俄罗斯人一直在阻碍联合国安理会有意义的行动。

I have proposed a league of democracies, a group of people - a group of countries that share common interests, common values, common ideals, they also control a lot of the world's economic power. We could impose significant meaningful, painful sanctions on the Iranians that I think could have a beneficial effect.

我建议成立这个民主国家联盟,它由一群人 —— 多个国家构成,这些国家拥有共同的利益,共同的价值观,共同的理想,它们也控制了这个世界上大部分的经济实力。我们就可以对伊朗实施有相当意义和令其痛苦的制裁,而那将会产生有益的效果。

The Iranians have a lousy government, so therefore their economy is lousy, even though they have significant oil revenues. So I am convinced that together, we can, with the French, with the British, with the Germans and other countries, democracies around the world, we can affect Iranian behavior.

伊朗人有着一个龌龊的政府,也因而有着龌龊的经济,哪怕他们拥有巨大的石油暴利。所以我相信我们一起,和法国、英国、德国还有其他国家,和全世界的民主国家,我梦能改变伊朗的行为。

But have no doubt, but have no doubt that the Iranians continue on the path to the acquisition of a nuclear weapon as we speak tonight. And it is a threat not only in this region but around the world.

但毫不怀疑地,毫不怀疑地就在我们谈话的今晚,伊朗人还在向获取核武器的道路上前进。它不仅仅是那个地区的威胁,还是对世界的威胁。

What I'd also like to point out the Iranians are putting the most lethal IEDs into Iraq which are killing young Americans, there are special groups in Iran coming into Iraq and are being trained in Iran. There is the Republican Guard in Iran, which Senator Kyl had an amendment in order to declare them a sponsor of terror. Senator Obama said that would be provocative.

我还想指出伊朗人正在把最具杀伤力的爆炸装置运往伊拉克,而那将夺走美国年轻人的命。有一个特别小组正在从伊朗前往伊拉克,这些人都是在伊朗接受训练。凯尔议员作了点修正,以便声明伊朗的共和国卫队军是恐怖组织的一个发起组织。而奥巴马议员说那是在挑衅伊朗。

(注:简易爆炸装置或即造爆炸装置或土制炸弹(Improvised Explosive Device,IED)泛指任何利用现有或临时制造的材料所制成之炸弹。传统引爆方式是采用计时装置来引爆,随后出现以遥控方式进行引爆(特别是利用无线电或行动电话等器材作为引爆装置)。在伊拉克和阿富汗战场上,美军查获的IED已采用是感应式引信和防拆装置,显见IED的设计与制造已逐渐趋向复杂化和精密化,已非能以“简易爆炸装置”来叙述。

Senator Kyl,琼·凯尔(Jon Kyl,1942年4月25日—)是共和党的美国参议员,来自亚利桑那州。在参议院于2007年1月3日展开新会期后,凯尔也多了一项职务—担任参议院里共和党协商会(Republican Conference)的主席,使他成为参议院里名列第三的共和党重要人物。)

So this is a serious threat. This is a serious threat to security in the world, and I believe we can act and we can act with our friends and allies and reduce that threat as quickly as possible, but have no doubt about the ultimate result of them acquiring nuclear weapons.

所以这是一个严重的威胁。这是对世界和平的一个严重的威胁。我相信我们能行动……我们能和我们的朋友和盟友并尽快消减那个威胁。我毫不怀疑他们试图获取核武器的最终后果。
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发表于 2008-10-23 21:32:43 | 显示全部楼层

个人OBAMA

我个人还是希望OBAMA获得胜利。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:32:44 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: Two minutes on Iran, Senator Obama.

主持人:关于伊朗,两分钟,奥巴马议员。

OBAMA: Well, let me just correct something very quickly. I believe the Republican Guard of Iran is a terrorist organization. I've consistently said so. What Senator McCain refers to is a measure in the Senate that would try to broaden the mandate inside of Iraq.

奥巴马:嗯,请让我快速指正一些东西。我认为伊朗共和国卫队是一个恐怖组织。我一向这么说。而麦凯恩议员所提到的是议会里的一个权衡,即是否扩大伊拉克的委任。

To deal with Iran, and ironically, the single thing that has strengthened Iran over the last several years has been the war in Iraq. Iraq was Iran's mortal enemy. That was cleared away. And what we've seen over the last several years is Iran's influence grow. They have funded Hezbollah, they have funded Hamas, they have gone from zero centrifuges to 4,000 centrifuges to develop a nuclear weapon.

回到伊朗,讽刺的是,唯一让伊朗在过去数年间强大的就是伊拉克战争。伊拉克曾是伊朗的死敌。现在它已经不再是了。而我们过去数年来看到的是伊朗影响力的增加。他们支助了黎巴嫩真主党,支助了哈马斯(注:一个巴勒斯坦激进组织),他们从无到有现在已经有了4000台离心机用于开发核武器。

So obviously, our policy over the last eight years has not worked. Senator McCain is absolutely right, we cannot tolerate a nuclear Iran. It would be a game changer. Not only would it threaten Israel, a country that is our stalwart ally, but it would also create an environment in which you could set off an arms race in this Middle East.

所以,很明显,我们过去八年的政策不起作用。麦凯恩议员完全正确,那就是我们不能忍受一个拥有核武器的伊朗。他会改变游戏规则,不仅仅会威胁我们坚定的盟友以色列,还会改变中东局势并引发军备竞赛。

Now here's what we need to do. We do need tougher sanctions. I do not agree with Senator McCain that we're going to be able to execute the kind of sanctions we need without some cooperation with some countries like Russia and China that are, I think Senator McCain would agree, not democracies, but have extensive trade with Iran but potentially have an interest in making sure Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon.

这是我们所要做的:我们需要更加强硬的制裁。我不同意麦凯恩议员的观点,我认为要执行我们需要的制裁,我们不能没有来自一些国家如俄罗斯还有中国的合作。我想麦凯恩议员也许也会同意,他们(虽然)没有民主政治,但却和伊朗有着广泛的贸易合作,而且他们也希望看到一个没有核武器的伊朗。

But we are also going to have to, I believe, engage in tough direct diplomacy with Iran and this is a major difference I have with Senator McCain, this notion by not talking to people we are punishing them has not worked. It has not worked in Iran, it has not worked in North Korea. In each instance, our efforts of isolation have actually accelerated their efforts to get nuclear weapons. That will change when I'm president of the United States.

但我认为,我们也将得开展同伊朗的艰难地直接外交对话。这是我和麦凯恩议员的一个主要的区别。不和我们所惩罚的人们对话,这个观点在伊朗没有成功,在朝鲜(也)没有成功。在两个场合(伊朗和朝鲜),我们试图孤立他们的努力实际上加速了他们去获取核武器的努力。而当我是美国总统时,那会发生改变的。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:33:13 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: Senator, what about talking?

主持人:(麦凯恩)议员,你怎么说?

MCCAIN: Senator Obama twice said in debates he would sit down with Ahmadinejad, Chavez and Raul Castro without precondition. Without precondition. Here is Ahmadinenene (ph), Ahmadinejad, who is, Ahmadinejad, who is now in New York, talking about the extermination of the State of Israel, of wiping Israel off the map, and we're going to sit down, without precondition, across the table, to legitimize and give a propaganda platform to a person that is espousing the extermination of the state of Israel, and therefore then giving them more credence in the world arena and therefore saying, they've probably been doing the right thing, because you will sit down across the table from them and that will legitimize their illegal behavior.

麦凯恩:奥巴马议员两次在辩论中说到他将会和内贾德(注:伊朗总统),查韦斯(注:委内瑞拉总统 Hugo Chavez)还有劳尔.卡斯特罗(注:古巴领导人)没有任何前提就一起坐下来谈,没有任何前提。这位内贾尼……呃,内贾德,现在在纽约,谈论着要灭绝以色列,要把以色列从地图上清除掉,而(你却想让)我们要坐下来,没有任何前提,在桌面上,合法化他的行为,并给那个赞成要灭绝以色列的人一个宣传的平台。这将因此给他们在世界舞台上增加信用度,这也因此等于是(我们)在说,他们也许一直在做的是正确的事情,因为你坐下来和他们在桌面上(谈),而那还会将他们的不合法行为合法化。

(注:我觉得麦凯恩这一段对美国利益来说,言之有理。)

The point is that throughout history, whether it be Ronald Reagan, who wouldn't sit down with Brezhnev, Andropov or Chernenko until Gorbachev was ready with glasnost and perestroika.

重点是在历史上,不管是罗纳德.里根,他没有坐下来和勃列日涅夫,安德罗波夫坐下来谈,直到戈尔巴乔夫准备好了公开化和改革为止;



注: “伟大领袖” 列昂尼德·伊里奇·勃列日涅夫(1906—1982)是苏联第四代领导人。从1964年10月起到1982年11月去世为止,共执掌这个世界第二强国的最高领导权达十八年,在苏联六十九年历史中,执政时间仅次于斯大林。勃列日涅夫毕业于乌克兰的第涅伯彼得罗夫斯克矿业冶金学院,从事党的工作;1941年卫国战争爆发,勃列日涅夫以中校军衔参加红军,1942年任第18集团军政治部主任;战争结束时任乌克兰第四方面军政治部主任,少将军衔。确切地说,勃列日涅夫并未真正上过前线,只是在后方隐蔽所里鼓舞士气。

注:尤里·安德罗波夫(Yuri Andropov,1914年-1984年),苏联特务组织克格勃首脑、政治家。1939 年他加入苏联共产党,1953年任匈牙利大使,1956年镇压了匈牙利事件。1967年开始任克格勃首脑,实行政治高压政策,对持异议的知识分子进行镇压,将他们送进克格勃管制下的精神病院进行非人道的折磨。1982年11月他接替勃列日涅夫成为苏联共产党总书记,在任期间,继承了勃列日涅夫的政策, 1984年逝世,由契尔年科接任总书记职务。

注:“卓越领袖” 康斯坦丁·乌斯季诺维奇·契尔年科(Konstantin Ustinovich Chernenko),(1984年2月13日-1985年3月10日)。苏联党务和国务活动家,曾任苏联共产党中央总书记、苏共中央政治局委员、中央书记。


注:glasnost,苏联政府关于在对社会问题和弊端的讨论中强调公平的一个官方政策。

注:perestroika,指开始于20世纪80年代中期对苏联经济和官僚政治的重新组织



Or whether it be Nixon's trip to China, which was preceded by Henry Kissinger, many times before he went. Look, I'll sit down with anybody, but there's got to be pre-conditions. Those pre-conditions would apply that we wouldn't legitimize with a face to face meeting, a person like Ahmadinejad. Now, Senator Obama said, without preconditions.

还是尼克松的访华,而在他之前,亨利.基辛格已经来华了多次。你看,我会和任何人坐下来谈,但必须得有前提条件。而那些前提条件涉及我们不会以面对面的会议去合法化,类似于内贾德那样的人。而现在,奥巴马议员说不需要前提条件。



注:理查德·米尔豪斯·尼克松(Richard Milhous Nixon,1913年1月9日-1994年4月22日),第36任美国副总统(1953年—1961年)与第37任美国总统(1969年—1974 年)。尼克松是美国史上唯一一位当过两届副总统与两届总统的人,但也是唯一一位于在位期间,以辞职的方式离开总统职位的美国总统。他在1974年8月因 “水门事件”事件曝光之后(授权非法闯入民主党在水门饭店的总部,并下令掩盖事件真相,事后福特总统给予尼克松特赦,以便缓解全美上下在尼克松总统因水门事件辞职后出现的分歧。)被迫辞去总统职务,成为唯一一位由于辞职而离任的美国总统。

注:亨利·艾尔弗雷德·基辛格 (Henry Alfred Kissinger) 1923年5月27日生于德国费尔特市。犹太人后裔。1938年移居美国。1943年加入美国籍。1950年毕业于哈佛大学,1952年获文学硕士、 1954年获哲学博士学位。1971年7月,基辛格作为尼克松总统特使访华,为中美关系大门的开启作出了历史性贡献。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:33:30 | 显示全部楼层
OBAMA: So let's talk about this. First of all, Ahmadinejad is not the most powerful person in Iran. So he may not be the right person to talk to. But I reserve the right, as president of the United States to meet with anybody at a time and place of my choosing if I think it's going to keep America safe.

奥巴马:所以让我们谈谈这个。首先,内贾德并不是伊朗最有实力的人。所以他也许并不是对话的恰当人选。但我保留这个权利,作为美国总统在任何时间任何地点去会见我选择的任何人,如果我认为那样对美国安全有益的话。

(注:我个人以为,奥巴马此句,实在过了。他还没有当上美国总统呢,就如此地自以为是。作为一个领导人,特别是像美国总统这样的重要人物,怎么能够如此地以自我为中心?

在资治通鉴中,任何一个兴旺的朝代,其皇帝都非常开明,这以唐太宗李世民为最。而在唐太宗李世民的治下,唐朝经济发展,社会安定,政治清明,人民富裕安康,出现了空前的繁荣。由于他在位时年号为贞观,所以人们把他统治的这一段时期称为“贞观之治”。“贞观之治”是我国历史上最为璀璨夺目的时期。

唐太宗从波澜壮阔的农民战争中认识到人民群众力量的伟大,吸取隋朝灭亡的原因,非常重视老百姓的生活。他强调以民为本,常说:“民,水也;君,舟也。水能载舟,亦能覆舟。”太宗即位之初,下令轻徭薄赋,让老百姓休养生息。唐太宗爱惜民力,从不轻易征发徭役。他患有气疾,不适合居住在潮湿的旧宫殿,但他一直在隋朝的旧宫殿里住了很久。他还下令合并州县,革除“民少吏多”的弊利,有利于减轻人民负担。

唐太宗十分注重法治,他曾说:“国家法律不是帝王一家之法,是天下都要共同遵守的法律,因此一切都要以法为准。”作为一位万人之上的君主能够说出这样一番话来,唐太宗不愧是一位开明的皇帝。?法律制定出来后,唐太宗以身作则,带头守法,维护法律的划一和稳定。在贞观时期,真正地做到了王子犯法与民同罪。执法时铁面无私,但量刑时太宗又反复思考,慎之又慎。他说:“人死了不能再活,执法务必宽大简约。”由于太宗的苦心经营,贞观年间法制情况很好,犯法的人少了,被判死刑的更少。据载贞观三年,全国判死刑的才29人,几乎达到了封建社会法制的最高标准——“刑措”即可以不用刑罚。

以民为本的思想,广开言路,虚怀纳谏的胸襟;重用人才,唯才是任的准则;铁面无私,依法办事的气度构成了贞观之治的基本特色,成为封建治世最好的榜样,使唐朝在当时与西方国家相比,无论在政治、经济,还是文化上都走在世界的最前列。

贞观王朝的强盛是中国的任何一个王朝都无法比拟的。纵观中国历史上的几个强盛王朝,强盛的标志不外乎国富兵强和民丰物阜,在深层文明(主要指制度和文化遗产)上作出突出建树的有贞观王朝。正因为有了贞观之治的基础,武则天才能做到“政启开元”,从而为开元盛世奠定基础。开元盛世的富庶有大诗人杜甫的一首诗 “忆昔开元全盛日,小邑犹藏万家室,稻米流脂粟米白,公私仓廪俱丰实……” 为证。与生产力的高度发展相适应,唐王朝的国际威望也达到了顶峰,对外战争取得连绵的胜利,连续百余年保持连续不断的进攻态势,疆土极度扩张,朝鲜、漠北、西域的辽阔疆土相继并入中国的版图,西部疆土直达咸海东岸的石国(中亚细亚塔什干城)。

正因为唐朝的强盛,中国人也被称为“唐人”。现今西方华人聚居处也被称为“唐人街”。

反复看唐太宗为人做事的办法,感觉他和现在的西方的很多思想、企业文化都非常相似。一千多年前啊,真的非常了不起。



And I'm glad that Senator McCain brought up the history, the bipartisan history of us engaging in direct diplomacy.

我很高兴麦凯恩议员把历史引出来,我们两党在直接外交上共同的历史。

OBAMA: Senator McCain mentioned Henry Kissinger, who's one of his advisers, who, along with five recent secretaries of state, just said that we should meet with Iran -- guess what -- without precondition. This is one of your own advisers.

奥巴马:麦凯恩议员提到了亨利.基辛格,他是麦凯恩议员的一个顾问,他伴随过了之前的5任国务卿。他说我们应该和伊朗会谈——你猜什么——在没有前提下。这可是你自己的一个顾问。

Now, understand what this means "without preconditions." It doesn't mean that you invite them over for tea one day. What it means is that we don't do what we've been doing, which is to say, "Until you agree to do exactly what we say, we won't have direct contacts with you."

搞清楚“没有前提”是什么意思。它不是说某天你邀请他们来喝茶。它是指我们不做我们一直在做的,即:“你要是不完全照我说的做,我就不和你联系。”

There's a difference between preconditions and preparation. Of course we've got to do preparations, starting with low-level diplomatic talks, and it may not work, because Iran is a rogue regime.

前提和准备是有区别的。我们当然得做准备,以低端的外交会谈开始,那也许不起作用,毕竟伊朗是个流氓政权。

But I will point out that I was called naive when I suggested that we need to look at exploring contacts with Iran. And you know what? President Bush recently sent a senior ambassador, Bill Burns, to participate in talks with the Europeans around the issue of nuclear weapons.

但我要指出当我建议我们需要探索和伊朗的联系时,我被人说是“幼稚”。但你知道吗?布什总统最近排出了一位高级大使,比尔.伯恩斯,去欧洲参加了关于核武器的讨论。

Again, it may not work, but if it doesn't work, then we have strengthened our ability to form alliances to impose the tough sanctions that Senator McCain just mentioned.

再说一次,对话也许不起作用,但如果它不起作用,那么我们就要增强我们的能力,构建盟军,并对伊朗实施麦凯恩议员刚才提到的严厉制裁。

And when we haven't done it, as in North Korea -- let me just take one more example -- in North Korea, we cut off talks. They're a member of the axis of evil. We can't deal with them.

而当我们没有完成它(对话)时,就像在朝鲜——让我把它拿来作为一个例子——在朝鲜,我们切断了谈话,(我们认为)他们是邪恶轴心的一个成员,我们不能和他们谈判。

And you know what happened? They went -- they quadrupled their nuclear capacity. They tested a nuke. They tested missiles. They pulled out of the nonproliferation agreement. And they sent nuclear secrets, potentially, to countries like Syria.

然后你们知道发生了什么吗?他们去——他们把他们的核工业能力增大了4倍,他们做了核爆试验(注:2006年10月9日),他们实验了导弹。他们脱离了防止核扩散协议。他们还把核武器的机密可能给了类似于叙利亚这样的国家。

(注:引用网络上一位朋友的话:朝鲜核爆地点就在中朝边境,无论是地震还是核污染中国都是首当其冲。朝鲜的燃油、煤炭、粮食、日用品都是由中国供养着,更别提军事技术和广阔的战略腹地了。但朝鲜似乎是一个被宠惯坏了的孩子,你越是安抚,我就越不把你放在眼里。
对中国的戕害也有三条:
1、面子扫地。让人觉得中国作为世界大国,又是朝鲜的半个主人,却管不住自己的小兄弟,影响力太差;
2、事先通报中国,是想拖中国下水,让人觉得你们中朝还是一伙儿的。这样可以让中国做朝鲜的挡箭牌和替罪羊,朝鲜又可以躲在一边偷着乐了;
3、核爆等于推倒了东亚的核竞赛多米诺,日本、韩国、台湾都可以以此为借口,堂而皇之地发展核武,这是对中国国家利益的最大危害。)

When we re-engaged -- because, again, the Bush administration reversed course on this -- then we have at least made some progress, although right now, because of the problems in North Korea, we are seeing it on shaky ground.

当我们再次启动会谈——因为,再说一次,布什政府在这个问题上的颠倒顺序——我们至少还做出了一些进展。虽然现在因为朝鲜的问题,我们是战战兢兢地看着它。

(注:美国人挺“怕”朝鲜的。其实对于穷兵黩武的国家,任何正常的国家都会觉得害怕。)

And -- and I just -- so I just have to make this general point that the Bush administration, some of Senator McCain's own advisers all think this is important, and Senator McCain appears resistant.

我刚刚……我刚刚提到这点,那就是布什政府的决定(再次和朝鲜对话),麦凯恩议员自己的一些顾问认为很重要,而麦凯恩议员看起来反对这点。

He even said the other day that he would not meet potentially with the prime minister of Spain, because he -- you know, he wasn't sure whether they were aligned with us. I mean, Spain? Spain is a NATO ally.

奥巴马:他甚至另一天说他也许将不和西班牙首相会面,因为他——你知道,他不能确信西班牙是否是我们的盟友。我是说,西班牙?西班牙可是北约的一个盟国啊。

MCCAIN: Of course.

麦凯恩:当然是。

OBAMA: If we can't meet with our friends, I don't know how we're going to lead the world in terms of dealing with critical issues like terrorism.

奥巴马:如果我们不和我们的朋友会面,我不知道我们在处理一些关键问题例如恐怖主义上如何领导世界。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:33:49 | 显示全部楼层
MCCAIN: I'm not going to set the White House visitors schedule before I'm president of the United States. I don't even have a seal yet.

麦凯恩:我可不会在我成为美国总统之前就预订好哪些人要来白宫访问。我甚至还没有自己的印章。

(注:麦凯恩此话,一是讽刺奥巴马在没有成为总统前,就说要会见哪些人。二是讽刺奥巴马在成为总统前,就仿照美国总统的印章而做了一个印章。)

Look, Dr. Kissinger did not say that he would approve of face-to-face meetings between the president of the United States and the president -- and Ahmadinejad. He did not say that.

麦凯恩:听着,基辛格博士没有说过他会支持美国总统和伊朗总统……呃,内贾德的面对面的会见。他没有说过。

OBAMA: Of course not.

奥巴马:(他)当然没有(说过)。

MCCAIN: He said that there could be secretary-level and lower level meetings. I've always encouraged them. The Iranians have met with Ambassador Crocker in Baghdad.

麦凯恩:他只是说可以有一些部长级和更低级的会谈。我一直鼓励他们(这样做)。伊朗人已经和克罗克大使在巴格达会面了。

What Senator Obama doesn't seem to understand that if without precondition you sit down across the table from someone who has called Israel a "stinking corpse," and wants to destroy that country and wipe it off the map, you legitimize those comments.

而奥巴马议员似乎还不理解的是,在没有前提的情况下你就和那些人隔着桌子坐下来,那些人称呼以色列为一具“腐尸”,还想毁灭那个国家,并把以色列从地图上清扫出去,你是在合法化那些评论。

This is dangerous. It isn't just naive; it's dangerous. And so we just have a fundamental difference of opinion.

这是危险的。这不仅仅是幼稚,这是危险的。这样,我们俩有本质上不同的观点。

As far as North Korea is concerned, our secretary of state, Madeleine Albright, went to North Korea. By the way, North Korea, most repressive and brutal regime probably on Earth. The average South Korean is three inches (7.62厘米) taller than the average North Korean, a huge gulag.

至于说到朝鲜,我们的国务卿麦德琳.欧布莱特去过朝鲜。顺便说一下,朝鲜这个地球上最高压和残暴的政权,韩国人的平均身高比朝鲜人的平均身高要高7.62厘米,真是一个巨大的古拉格集中营。

(注:朝鲜和韩国是同样的民族,同样的人种。

另:

大陆城市人口平均身高 170.2
大陆农村人口平均身高 166.3
日本人平均身高 171.2
台湾人平均身高 171.45

资料来源:维基百科 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

对于日本人口身高超过中国这一点,国内的论坛上倒是有些不同观点。下面这篇文章曾经被多次转贴:
“揭破无耻谎言:日本人平均身高何曾高于中国” http://www.idoer.org/Article/200710/show840728c30p1.html

按照他的说法:“根据21世纪中国人口普查,中国人北方男性平均身高为175,南方男性平均身高为170”。



这里我再补充一个国家的平均身高,美国:175.8

大家自行判断。



We don't know what the status of the dear leader's health is today, but we know this, that the North Koreans have broken every agreement that they've entered into.

我们不知道伟大领袖今天的健康状况怎么样,但我们知道的是,朝鲜撕毁了每一个他们曾经加入过的协议。

And we ought to go back to a little bit of Ronald Reagan's "trust, but verify," and certainly not sit down across the table from -- without precondition, as Senator Obama said he did twice, I mean, it's just dangerous.

所以我们应该回到罗纳德.里根的“相信,但查证”上,而且显然不能隔着桌子坐下来——在没有前提条件的情况下。而奥巴马议员已经说这个两次了,我说,那是危险的。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:34:06 | 显示全部楼层
OBAMA: Look, I mean, Senator McCain keeps on using this example that suddenly the president would just meet with somebody without doing any preparation, without having low-level talks. Nobody's been talking about that, and Senator McCain knows it. This is a mischaracterization of my position.

奥巴马:听着,我说的是,麦凯恩议员总是拿这个例子来说事。(他说)这位总统突然就马上要和一些人会面,不做任何的准备,之前不做任何低级的对话。没人这么说,麦凯恩议员你也知道。这是对我的观点的不恰当描述。

When we talk about preconditions -- and Henry Kissinger did say we should have contacts without preconditions -- the idea is that we do not expect to solve every problem before we initiate talks.

当我们说前提条件时——亨利.基辛格确实说过我们应该不要前提条件就接触——我们的想法是我们不指望在开始谈话前就解决所有的问题。

And, you know, the Bush administration has come to recognize that it hasn't worked, this notion that we are simply silent when it comes to our enemies. And the notion that we would sit with Ahmadinejad and not say anything while he's spewing his nonsense and his vile comments is ridiculous. Nobody is even talking about that.

还有,你知道的,布什政府已经承认这么做没用,即当提到我们的敌人时,我们就简单地保持沉默。而我们会和内贾德坐下来,当(内贾德)口吐狂言时,我们啥也不说,这种观念也是可笑的。没有人那么说。

MCCAIN: So let me get this right. We sit down with Ahmadinejad, and he says, "We're going to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth,"

麦凯恩:那么,让我来帮你说清楚点。我们和内贾德坐下来,他说:“我们得把以色列从地球表面扫除。”

(注:以下为快速对话。)

MCCAIN: and we say, "No, you're not"?
麦凯恩:然后我们说:“不,你别(这样)”?
OBAMA: Yeah...
奥巴马:(插话)是啊……
MCCAIN: Oh, please.
麦凯恩:哦,请(别搞笑了)。
OBAMA: No, let me tell...
奥巴马:(插话)不是,让我告诉……

(全场笑)

MCCAIN: By the way, my friend, Dr. Kissinger, who's been my friend for 35 years, would be interested to hear this conversation and Senator Obama's depiction of his -- of his positions on the issue. I've known him for 35 years.

麦凯恩:顺便说一下,我的朋友,基辛格博士。他是我35年的朋友了。他会很感兴趣听咱们的对话还有奥巴马议员关于——关于他在这件事情上的态度的描述。(笑)我了解他已经35年了。

OBAMA: We will take a look.

奥巴马:我们可以看看。

MCCAIN: And I guarantee you he would not -- he would not say that presidential top level.

麦凯恩:而且我想你保证他不会——他不会那样说总统级(的对话)。

OBAMA: Nobody's talking about that.

奥巴马:没有人那么说。

MCCAIN: Of course he encourages and other people encourage contacts, and negotiations, and all other things. We do that all the time.

麦凯恩:当然,他还有其他人都鼓励接触,还有谈判,还有其他一些办法。我们一直那么做。

LEHRER: We're going to go to a new...

主持人:我们要开始一个新的……

(CROSSTALK)
(插话)

MCCAIN: And Senator Obama is parsing words when he says precondition means preparation.

麦凯恩:而奥巴马议员是在分解词语,他说前提条件就是准备。

OBAMA: I am not parsing words.

奥巴马:我可没有分解词语。

MCCAIN: He's parsing words, my friends.

麦凯恩:他是在分解词语,我的朋友们。

OBAMA: I'm using the same words that your advisers use. Please, go ahead.

奥巴马:我一直在用你的顾问所用的同样的词语。(对主持人)请继续下一个问题吧。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:34:26 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: New lead question.

主持人:新的引导问题。

Russia, goes to you, two minutes, Senator Obama. How do you see the relationship with Russia? Do you see them as a competitor? Do you see them as an enemy? Do you see them as a potential partner?

俄罗斯,由你来回答,两分钟,奥巴马议员。你怎么看待(我们)和俄罗斯的关系?你认为他们是一个竞争者?还是敌人?还是潜在的合作伙伴?

OBAMA: Well, I think that, given what's happened over the last several weeks and months, our entire Russian approach has to be eva1uated, because a resurgent and very aggressive Russia is a threat to the peace and stability of the region.

奥巴马:呃,我这么想的,鉴于过去几个月以来发生的事情,我们对待俄罗斯的整体策略都得再掂量一下。因为一个复活的和极具攻击性的俄罗斯是对那个地区和平和稳定的威胁。

Their actions in Georgia were unacceptable. They were unwarranted. And at this point, it is absolutely critical for the next president to make clear that we have to follow through on our six-party -- or the six-point cease-fire. They have to remove themselves from South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

他们在格鲁吉亚的行动是不可接受的。他们无理地干涉。而现在,对下一任总统最为紧要的就是确定我们得把我们的六方——或者六点停火协议坚持到底。他们必须得从南奥塞梯和阿布哈兹撤离。

(注:格鲁吉亚共和国:黑海高加索地区的东南欧苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟的一个有制宪权的共和国。1921年为苏联红军入侵,1922年宣布为苏维埃共和国并正式加入苏联。1936年成为独立的共和国。首都是第比利斯。人口5,201,000。

奥塞梯:苏联欧洲部分南部、高加索中部一地区。此地区于1801-1806年间被俄国兼并,现已分裂,在北方为一个自治共和国,在南方则为一个自治州。南奥塞梯与“俄罗斯境内”北奥塞梯接壤。从1989年起,南奥塞梯就要求与“俄罗斯境内”的北奥塞梯合并。南奥塞梯1992年1月通过全民公决,要求成立独立共和国及与北奥塞梯合并。

阿布哈兹(Abkhazia)是格鲁吉亚的一个自治共和国,1992年自行宣布“独立”,并与格鲁吉亚发生军事冲突。阿布哈兹事实上处于独立的状态,然而它不被格鲁吉亚及国际社会承认。仅俄罗斯和尼加拉瓜宣布承认其独立。此后,联合国派遣观察团前往阿布哈兹,监控当地局势。格、阿双方经过多次谈判,至今未能解决阿布哈兹的地位问题。)

It is absolutely important that we have a unified alliance and that we explain to the Russians that you cannot be a 21st-century superpower, or power, and act like a 20th-century dictatorship.

重要的是我们要有一个统一的联盟,我们得向俄罗斯解释,作为21世纪的超级大国或者大国,不能看起来像20世纪的独裁政权。

And we also have to affirm all the fledgling democracies in that region, you know, the Estonians, the Lithuanians, the Latvians, the Poles, the Czechs, that we are, in fact, going to be supportive and in solidarity with them in their efforts. They are members of NATO.

我们也要肯定所有那个地区的新出现的民主国家,你知道的,爱沙尼亚、立陶宛、拉脱维亚、波兰、捷克。让他们知道,他们的努力将得到我们的支持,我们和他们团结在一起。他们是北约的成员。

(注:爱沙尼亚共和国是东北欧波罗的海三国之一。西向波罗的海,北向芬兰湾,南面和东面分别同拉脱维亚和俄罗斯接壤。19世纪被俄罗斯吞并,俄国十月革命之后 (1918年)独立,在第二次世界大战后的1956年正式成为了苏联的加盟共和国。1991年,在立陶宛宣布独立以后,爱沙尼亚也跟随独立。

立陶宛是一个历史古国,与俄罗斯一直在北欧及东欧争雄。过往曾一度与波兰合邦,后来被沙俄吞并。第一次世界大战后曾一度独立,但在第二次世界大战之后被斯大林领导的苏联再度吞并,沦为苏联加盟共和国之一。1990年再度争取独立并成功。

拉脱维亚(Latvija)是一个位于东北欧的国家。18世纪时,俄国从瑞典和波兰获取了现拉脱维亚的所有领土。第一次世界大战结束后,拉脱维亚于 1918 年11月18日获得独立,但在第二次世界大战期间,苏联再次兼并拉脱维亚,并将其纳为一个加盟共和国。1991年再次独立。西邻波罗的海,与在其北方的爱沙尼亚及在其南方的立陶宛共同称为波罗的海三国。)
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发表于 2008-10-23 21:34:36 | 显示全部楼层

123456a

伊拉克战争
最近OBAMA 他说比较多。尤其是这和MCCAIN谈得特别多
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:34:40 | 显示全部楼层
And to countries like Georgia and the Ukraine, I think we have to insist that they are free to join NATO if they meet the requirements, and they should have a membership action plan immediately to start bringing them in.

奥巴马:至于像格鲁吉亚和乌克兰这样的国家,我想我们得坚持他们有加入北约的自由,只要他们达到了要求。而且他们确实需要一个成员行动计划来开始把他们带起来。

(注: Membership action plan是一个北约始于1999年的计划,它用于给那些想要加入北约的国家提供建议和指导。对要加入北约的国家,每年还要检查他们在政治、经济、国防、安全等诸多方面的准备情况。这些想要加入北约的国家有:阿尔巴尼亚、保加利亚、爱沙尼亚、拉脱维亚、立陶宛、罗马尼亚、斯洛伐克、斯洛文尼亚等,其中的一些国家已经成功加入了北约。由于加入北约后,能与众多国家结成强大的防御联盟,中欧的许多小国为了自身的安全需要,都强烈希望能够加入北约。)

Now, we also can't return to a Cold War posture with respect to Russia. It's important that we recognize there are going to be some areas of common interest. One is nuclear proliferation.

我们现在也不能回到对俄罗斯的冷战姿态上去。重要的是我们得意识到(我们和俄罗斯)有一些共同的利益。其中一个就是防止核扩散。

They have not only 15,000 nuclear warheads, but they've got enough to make another 40,000, and some of those loose nukes could fall into the hands of Al Qaida.

他们不仅有1万5千个核弹头,还足以能再生产4万个,而其中一些看管不严的核武器可能落到基地组织的手里。

This is an area where I've led on in the Senate, working with a Republican ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Dick Lugar, to deal with the proliferation of loose nuclear weapons. That's an area where we're going to have to work with Russia.

这是一个我在议会里领导的领域。我和外交关系委员会的一位共和党成员,迪克.卢格,处理防止管理松懈的核武器扩散的事务。那是一个我们将和俄罗斯合作的领域。

But we have to have a president who is clear that you don't deal with Russia based on staring into his eyes and seeing his soul. You deal with Russia based on, what are your -- what are the national security interests of the United States of America?

但我们得要有一位总统,他清楚地知道在和俄罗斯打交道时,不是靠盯着他的眼睛并审视他的灵魂。你和俄罗斯打交道基于的是,我们——美利坚合众国的民族安全利益是什么。

And we have to recognize that the way they've been behaving lately demands a sharp response from the international community and our allies.

而我们还得认识到他们最近的行为要得到国际社会和我们的盟友的强烈回应。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:35:02 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: Two minutes on Russia, Senator McCain.

主持人:2分钟在俄罗斯上(的阐述),麦凯恩议员。

MCCAIN: Well, I was interested in Senator Obama's reaction to the Russian aggression against Georgia. His first statement was, "Both sides ought to show restraint."

麦凯恩:呃,我感兴趣的是奥巴马议员对俄罗斯侵略格鲁吉亚的反应。他最初的声明是:“双方都应保持克制”。

Again, a little bit of naivete there. He doesn't understand that Russia committed serious aggression against Georgia. And Russia has now become a nation fueled by petro-dollars that is basically a KGB apparatchik-run government.

他在这里再一次有点“天真烂漫”。他没理解俄罗斯对格鲁吉亚进行了严重的侵略。而俄罗斯现在成为了一个这样的民族,它由输出石油赚来的美元供养,它的政府基本上是由前苏联共产党的克格勃掌管。

I looked into Mr. Putin's eyes, and I saw three letters, a "K," a "G," and a "B." And their aggression in Georgia is not acceptable behavior.

我仔细观察过普京先生的眼睛,我看到了三个字,“克”,“格”,还有一个“勃”。而他们对格鲁吉亚的侵略是不可接受的行为。

(注:麦凯恩在对俄罗斯的态度上,明显比奥巴马强硬。)

I don't believe we're going to go back to the Cold War. I am sure that that will not happen. But I do believe that we need to bolster our friends and allies. And that wasn't just about a problem between Georgia and Russia. It had everything to do with energy. There's a pipeline that runs from the Caspian through Georgia through Turkey. And, of course, we know that the Russians control other sources of energy into Europe, which they have used from time to time.

我不认为我们打算回到冷战。我很清楚那不会发生。但我坚信我们需要支持我们的朋友和盟友。那不仅仅是格鲁吉亚和俄罗斯之间的一个问题。那和能源有密切关系。有一条输油管道从里海开始,穿过格鲁吉亚,穿过土耳其。当然,我们知道俄罗斯控制了其他一些通向欧洲的能源渠道,而他们时不时地用它(来要挟欧洲)。

It's not accidental that the presidents of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, and Ukraine flew to Georgia, flew to Tbilisi, where I have spent significant amount of time with a great young president, Misha Saakashvili.

拉脱维亚、爱沙尼亚、立陶宛、波兰还有乌克兰的总统都飞去了格鲁吉亚,飞去第比利斯(注:格鲁吉亚共和国首都),不是偶然的。在那里,我花了相当的时间和一位年轻有为的总统在一起,他就是米哈伊尔.萨卡什维利。

(注:米哈伊尔·萨卡什维利(1967年12月21日-),格鲁吉亚政治家,现任总统。出任总统前他是格鲁吉亚的法官。2000年10月12日,萨卡什维利成为爱德华·谢瓦尔德纳泽政府的司法部长,2001年9月5日因不满政府贪污问题严重而辞职。2001年10月,萨卡什维利组建民族运动党,2002年 6月当选第比利斯市议会主席,2003年11月发动玫瑰革命使谢瓦尔德纳泽总统辞职。2004年1月4日他以96.27%的得票率当选格鲁吉亚总统。 2007年 11月25日,米哈伊尔·萨卡什维利辞去总统职务,由议长妮诺·布尔贾纳泽代行总统职责。2008年1月5日的总统选举中再次被选为总统,1月20日正式回任。据报道,萨卡什维利精通最少七种语言,包含英语、法语和俄语,他的妻子桑德拉·鲁洛夫斯为荷兰人。)

MCCAIN: And they showed solidarity with them, but, also, they are very concerned about the Russian threats to regain their status of the old Russian empire.

麦凯恩:他们显示了紧密的团结。他们也非常担忧来自俄罗斯的威胁,担忧俄罗斯企图重新回到沙俄的状态。

Now, I think the Russians ought to understand that we will support -- we, the United States -- will support the inclusion of Georgia and Ukraine in the natural process, inclusion into NATO.

现在,我认为俄罗斯应该明白我们将支持——我们,美国——将支持格鲁吉亚和乌克兰经过正常的程序,加入北约。

We also ought to make it very clear that the Russians are in violation of their cease-fire agreement. They have stationed additional troops in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

我们也需要说清楚的是俄罗斯违反了他们的停火协议。他们在阿布哈兹和南奥塞梯驻扎了额外的部队。

By the way, I went there once, and we went inside and drove in, and there was a huge poster. And this is -- this is Georgian territory. And there was a huge poster of Vladimir Putin, and it said, "Vladimir Putin, our president."

顺便说一下,我去过那里一次,我们开车进去(阿布哈兹),那里有一张巨大的张贴画。而那张画是——在格鲁吉亚的领土,那里有张巨大的普京的张贴画,上面写着:“弗拉基米尔·普京,我们的总统。”

(注:弗拉基米尔·弗拉基米罗维奇·普京,列宁格勒(现圣彼得堡)人,前任俄罗斯总统。普京2000年至2008年任总统期间,使俄罗斯在军事与政治实力上均有相当的提升,但他在民主方面遭到很多争议,可说是一位名副其实的“铁腕总统”。然而,无可否认的是普京在国内获得了极高的支持率。2007年普京被美国《时代》周刊选为当年的年度风云人物。普京在当选总统前曾经短暂担任过俄罗斯总理职务(1999年—2000年),2008年普京卸任总统后马上被继任总统梅德韦杰夫提名,第二度出任总理。

2004年3月14日,普京成功连任总统,并得到71%的绝对多数票。在他的第二届总统任期中,西方人士广泛抨击他对新闻自由的打压。与此同时,2005 年一项调查显示,82%的俄罗斯人同意新闻审查。对这一调查,社会学家们认为俄罗斯人所同意的是对伦理方面有争议的内容进行限制,而非对政治内容的限制。

主要由普京支持的统一俄罗斯党在普京任期内亦多次表达对普京及其思想的认同。2006年12月,统一俄罗斯党第七次代表大会通过纲领我们选择的俄罗斯,归纳并声明了普京思想为该党的指导思想。

由于目前俄罗斯宪法对总统任期的限制,普京无法继续参与2008年的总统大选。2007年,普京在接受八国集团记者采访时认为,“5到7年的总统任期是完全可以接受的”,暗示其可能通过修改宪法延长总统任期。前俄罗斯总统叶利钦一直反对普京修宪,在2007年国家杜马选举上大胜的统一俄罗斯党主席也发表意见说,普京不会修改宪法。

在外交方面,普京试图恢复俄罗斯在苏联时代超级大国的地位,并取得了一定成功。例如,2007年慕尼黑会议上,普京指责美国在国际事务上的专横,并声称美国在国际事务上“毫不遮掩地使用强权”。此外普京还说:“没有人会感到安全。没有人会认为国际法是一堵能保护他们的墙。美国的政策正在激发世界范围内的军备竞赛。”

普京指出,理想的世界秩序应是“一个公正、民主的世界秩序,它能保证所有人的安全与财富,而非独少数人的。”他在铀开发控制和防止太空军备中起到了重要的作用。2007年1月,普京在采访中说,俄罗斯主张民主与多极化的世界秩序,且支持巩固国际法系统。一些西方政治家长期指责普京的极权主义倾向。

资料来源:维基百科)

It was very clear, the Russian intentions towards Georgia. They were just waiting to seize the opportunity.

那非常明显,俄罗斯针对格鲁吉亚的意图。他们只是一直在等待这个机会。

So, this is a very difficult situation. We want to work with the Russians. But we also have every right to expect the Russians to behave in a fashion and keeping with a -- with a -- with a country who respects international boundaries and the norms of international behavior.

所以,这是一个非常复杂的局面。我们想要和俄罗斯合作,但我们也有足够的理由期望俄罗斯表现并保持一个 —— 一个 —— 一个这样的国家:它尊重国界线,遵守国际行为规范。

(注:俄罗斯侵吞中国的地盘,相信我们中国人深有体会。黑龙江以北,外兴安岭以南,乌苏里江以东,包括库页岛,西北巴尔喀什湖以东以南,共计150万平方千米的土地,全部都被俄罗斯吃下去了。这还不包括那个外蒙古。)

And watch Ukraine. This whole thing has got a lot to do with Ukraine, Crimea, the base of the Russian fleet in Sevastopol. And the breakdown of the political process in Ukraine between Tymoshenko and Yushchenko is a very serious problem.

再看看乌克兰。整件事情和乌克兰,克里米亚(半岛)还有俄罗斯在塞瓦斯托波尔港口的舰队基地有相当大的关系。而乌克兰在季莫申科和尤希奇恩克之间的政治进程崩溃是一个非常严重的问题。

(注:

克里米亚半岛又称克里木半岛,是位于前苏联欧洲部分南部、黑海北部海岸上的一个半岛。面积2.7万平方公里,人口250万。目前是乌克兰的一个自治共和国。在果园、葡萄园和树木的掩映下,散落着许多村庄、清真寺、修道院、俄罗斯皇家宫殿以及古希腊和中世纪的城堡。这些名胜古迹显示,从6世纪到19世纪中叶,依次有基督教徒、穆斯林鞑靼人和犹太人在这里居住和生活。就连最为激进的乌克兰民族主义者也不得不承认,克里米亚是少数能够看到乌克兰文化古迹的地区。

塞瓦斯托波尔位于亚尔港西部、黑海之滨的克里米亚。建于古希腊领地位置,它在18世纪末成为俄国主要的黑海海军基地。该城在克里米亚战争和第二次世界大战中抵御了长时间的围攻。人口341,000。

乌克兰的克里米亚半岛问题则由来已久。苏联解体后,作为独立、主权和领土完整的乌克兰把盘据在塞瓦斯多波尔几条俄舰视作眼中钉,也是国家、民族之耻。俄罗斯国家杜马独联体事务委员会主席奥斯特罗夫斯基曾宣称:“如果乌克兰加入北约的活动加速,俄罗斯将提出克里米亚半岛的归属问题。”所以乌克兰趁俄格开战时重申对军港的主权,限令俄国黑海舰队的军人、舰船及飞行器凡进入调动之前,必须提前十个工作日报告乌克兰国防部申请许可。此总统令明确表示俄军在塞瓦斯多波尔港口是客人非主人,只是暂时借地居住,并非殖民统治者的海外基地,不能随意出入乌克兰国境,更不准利用基地作战争行为。

Yulia Tymoshenko (尤利娅·季莫申科) 乌克兰前美女总理,照片在此:
/view

Viktor Yushchenko(维克多.尤希奇恩克) 乌克兰总统。



So watch Ukraine, and let's make sure that we -- that the Ukrainians understand that we are their friend and ally.

所以看看乌克兰,让我们确保我们……呃,乌克兰理解我们是他们的朋友和盟军。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:35:13 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: You see any -- do you have a major difference with what he just said?

主持人:(对奥巴马)你觉得——呃,你的观点和他刚才所说的有主要的不同吗?

OBAMA: No, actually, I think Senator McCain and I agree for the most part on these issues. Obviously, I disagree with this notion that somehow we did not forcefully object to Russians going into Georgia.

奥巴马:没有,实际上,我认为麦凯恩议员和我在大部分上都有共同点。显然,我反对的是不知为何我们没有对俄罗斯入侵格鲁吉亚提出强烈抗议。

I immediately said that this was illegal and objectionable. And, absolutely, I wanted a cessation of the violence, because it put an enormous strain on Georgia, and that's why I was the first to say that we have to rebuild the Georgian economy and called for a billion dollars that has now gone in to help them rebuild.

(在俄罗斯入侵格鲁吉亚后,)我立即说这是非法的并应该抗议。而且,绝对地,我想要这暴力活动停下来,因为它对格鲁吉亚造成了太大的伤害。这也是为什么我是第一个说我们得重建格鲁吉亚的经济并呼吁那已经投入帮助他们重建经济的数十亿美元。

Because part of Russia's intentions here was to weaken the economy to the point where President Saakashvili was so weakened that he might be replaced by somebody that Putin favored more.

因为俄罗斯的部分意图是削弱格鲁吉亚的经济,直到萨卡什维利总统失势,这样他就可能被另外一些普京更希望的人取代。

Two points I think are important to think about when it comes to Russia.

我认为在提到俄罗斯的时候,有两点我们得好好想想。

Number one is we have to have foresight and anticipate some of these problems. So back in April, I warned the administration that you had Russian peacekeepers in Georgian territory. That made no sense whatsoever.

第一条是我们得深虑远谋,(趁早)参与其中一些问题。所以早在(今年)四月,我就提醒过管理部门,俄罗斯的维和部队在格鲁吉亚的领土上,而那是没有意义的。

And what we needed to do was replace them with international peacekeepers and a special envoy to resolve the crisis before it boiled over.

我们(当时)需要的是以联合国的维和部队来代替他们。派出一位特使在危机爆发前解决它。

That wasn't done. But had it been done, it's possible we could have avoided the issue.

而那没有实施。但假如实施了,我们有可能避免现在的问题。

The second point I want to make is -- is the issue of energy. Russia is in part resurgent and Putin is feeling powerful because of petro-dollars, as Senator McCain mentioned.

第二点我想要指出的是——能源问题。因为他们输出石油赚来的金钱,俄罗斯部分地复活了(苏联的力量),普京感觉不可一世,正如麦凯恩议员所提到的。

That means that we, as one of the biggest consumers of oil -- 25 percent of the world's oil -- have to have an energy strategy not just to deal with Russia, but to deal with many of the rogue states we've talked about, Iran, Venezuela.

那意味着我们,作为世界上最大的石油消耗国——世界百分之25的石油——必须得有一个能源策略,这个策略不仅仅是针对俄罗斯,也针对其他一些我们已经谈到的流氓国家,伊朗、委内瑞拉。

And that means, yes, increasing domestic production and off-shore drilling, but we only have 3 percent of the world's oil supplies and we use 25 percent of the world's oil. So we can't simply drill our way out of the problem.

那意味着,是的,增加国内的(石油)生产,海底钻探。但我们只有世界石油百分之3的产出,而我们要用世界石油的百分之25.所以我们不能简单地靠钻探来摆脱这个问题。

What we're going to have to do is to approach it through alternative energy, like solar, and wind, and biodiesel, and, yes, nuclear energy, clean-coal technology. And, you know, I've got a plan for us to make a significant investment over the next 10 years to do that.

我们将要做的是通过替代能源来解决这个问题,如太阳能、风能,还有生物柴油,还有,是的,核能、清洁煤炭技术。还有,你们知道,我已经有一个计划为我们在将来的10年在新能源方面做极大的投资。

And I have to say, Senator McCain and I, I think agree on the importance of energy, but Senator McCain mentioned earlier the importance of looking at a record.

我还得说的是,麦凯恩议员和我,我认为我们都认同能源的重要性,但麦凯恩议员先前提到过了:重要的是看看自己的履历。

Over 26 years, Senator McCain voted 23 times against alternative energy, like solar, and wind, and biodiesel.

在过去的26年,麦凯恩议员有23次投票反对替代能源,如太阳能、风能,还有生物柴油。

And so we -- we -- we've got to walk the walk and not just talk the talk when it comes to energy independence, because this is probably going to be just as vital for our economy and the pain that people are feeling at the pump -- and, you know, winter's coming and home heating oil -- as it is our national security and the issue of climate change that's so important.

而因此我们——我们——我们在提到能源独立时,必须得实践了而不仅仅是高谈阔论。(注:奥巴马此言,正是反驳之前麦凯恩指责奥巴马只会高谈阔论,而不实践。)因为这也许对我们的经济和难以忍受的高油价至关紧要——还有,你们知道,冬天就要来了,而民用燃油——那关系到我们民族的安全。还有就是气候变化的问题是如此的重要。

(注:pain at the pump,指的是难以忍受的高油价。)
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:35:28 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: We've got time for one more lead question segment. We're way out of...

主持人:我们还有时间来多讨论一个引导问题。我们就要摆脱……

(CROSSTALK)
(插话)


MCCAIN: No one from Arizona is against solar. And Senator Obama says he's for nuclear, but he's against reprocessing and he's against storing. So...

麦凯恩:亚利桑那州没有人反对太阳能。而奥巴马议员说他想要发展核能,但他却反对了核燃料回收和存储,所以……

(注:麦凯恩来自亚利桑那州)

OBAMA: That's just not true, John. John, I'm sorry, but that's not true.

奥巴马:那不是真的,约翰,约翰,很抱歉,但那不是真的。

MCCAIN: ... it's hard to get there from here. And off-shore drilling is also something that is very important and it is a bridge.

麦凯恩:……很难从(你现在的立场)这里到达(你想要的目标)那里。而海底钻探同样也非常重要,它可以作为一个(发展核能的)过渡。

And we know that, if we drill off-shore and exploit a lot of these reserves, it will help, at temporarily, relieve our energy requirements. And it will have, I think, an important effect on the price of a barrel of oil.

而且我们知道,如果我们进行海底钻探并开发许多储备,那会有用的,可以临时减轻我们对能源的需求。而且我认为,那会对每桶石油的价格产生重要的影响。

OBAMA: I just have to respond very quickly, just to correct -- just to correct the record.

奥巴马:(插话)我很快回应一下,只是要修正——只是要修正一下(麦凯恩议员刚谈到的)履历。

MCCAIN: So I want to say that, with the Nunn-Lugar thing...

麦凯恩:(不理奥巴马的插话)所以我想说那个,关于那恩-卢格计划……

LEHRER: Excuse me, Senator.

主持人:(插话,对麦凯恩)抱歉,议员。

OBAMA: John?

奥巴马:(插话)约翰?

MCCAIN: ... I supported Nunn-Lugar back in the early 1990s when a lot of my colleagues didn't. That was the key legislation at the time and put us on the road to eliminating this issue of nuclear waste and the nuclear fuel that has to be taken care of.

麦凯恩:……早在上个世纪90年代初期我就支持了那恩-卢格计划,当时我的许多同僚没有(支持)。当时那是一个关键的立法,并把我们放在消除核废料和要操心的核燃料的道路上。

(注:那恩-卢格计划,由议员萨姆.那恩 和 议员理查德.卢格共同发起,其目的是为了“在前苏联保护和拆除大规模杀伤性武器以及相关的底层建设”。其主要的实施方式是由美国政府出钱出专家,在和前苏联成员国达成协议的情况下,帮助他们拆除大规模杀伤性武器,主要是指核武器、生化武器和化学武器。达成了协议的这些国家有:俄罗斯、乌克兰、格鲁吉亚、阿塞拜疆、乌兹别克斯坦、哈萨克斯坦。由于这是一笔很大的开销,那恩议员和卢格议员做出了相当的努力,终于说服国会,在1992年为这个计划立法。

大家还记得我们之前说过,美国的政治情况。对于这种大开销都需要立法,参众两议院投票通过后,再由总统签字,方能生效。这样,每年才能从国库拨款。类似那恩-卢格计划这种开销是有时限的,时限一过,法律就过期作废了,国会也就不会再拨款了。



OBAMA: I -- I just have to correct the record here. I have never said that I object to nuclear waste. What I've said is that we have to store it safely.

奥巴马:(插话)我——我只是得澄清一下我们的履历。我从没有说过我反对核废料(处理)。我所说的是我们得将其安全地存储。

And, Senator McCain, he says -- he talks about Arizona.

而,麦凯恩议员,他说——他提到亚利桑那州……

LEHRER: All right.

主持人:(插话)好了。

OBAMA: I've got to make this point, Jim.

奥巴马:(插话)我得指出这点来,吉姆。

LEHRER: OK.

主持人:好吧。

OBAMA: He objects...

奥巴马:他反对……

MCCAIN: I have voted for alternate fuel all of my time...

麦凯恩:(插话)我一直以来都投票支持代用燃料……

OBAMA: He -- he -- he objects...

奥巴马:他……他反对……

(CROSSTALK)
(插话)

LEHRER: One at a time, please.

主持人:请轮流着来。

OBAMA: He objected...

奥巴马:他反对……

LEHRER: One at a time.

主持人:轮流着来。

MCCAIN: No one can be opposed to alternate energy.

麦凯恩:(插话)没人可能会反对代用能源。

OBAMA: All right, fair enough. Let's move on. You've got one more energy -- you've got one more question.

奥巴马:好吧,够公平了。让我们继续吧。(对主持人)你还有一个能源……呃,你还有一个问题。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-23 21:35:46 | 显示全部楼层
LEHRER: This is the last -- last lead question. You have two minutes each. And the question is this, beginning with you, Senator McCain.

主持人:这是最后一个——最后一个引导问题。你们俩每人有2分钟。问题是这个,嗯,从你开始,麦凯恩议员。

What do you think the likelihood is that there would be another 9/11-type attack on the continental United States?

你认为在美国本土发生另一次类似911的攻击可能性有多大?

MCCAIN: I think it's much less than it was the day after 9/11. I think it -- that we have a safer nation, but we are a long way from safe.

麦凯恩:我认为自从911以后,这种可能性小了相当多。我认为它……我们的民族更安全了,但我们距离(真正的)安全还有很长一段路。

And I want to tell you that one of the things I'm most proud of, among others, because I have worked across the aisle. I have a long record on that, on a long series of reforms.

而我想要告诉你们我最值得骄傲的一件事,因为我曾经做过两党合作的工作。我在那上面有很长的履历,在一长串改革上。

(注:across the aisle,原意指共和党和民主党在国会之间的走道,现在也用于指不同的观点。)

But after 9/11, Senator Joe Lieberman and I decided that we needed a commission, and that was a commission to investigate 9/11, and find out what happened, and fix it.

911后,乔.李伯曼议员和我确定我们需要一个委员会,去调查911,查清楚发生了什么,并解决它。

And we were -- we were opposed by the administration, another area where I differed with this administration. And we were stymied until the families of 9/11 came, and they descended on Washington, and we got that legislation passed.

然而我们——(布什)政府反对了我们,这是另一个我和现任政府不同的地方。我们(的委员会计划)被阻碍,直到那些911遇难的家属来了,他们袭击华盛顿,而(议会)才通过那个立法。

And there were a series of recommendations, as I recall, more than 40. And I'm happy to say that we've gotten written into law most of those reforms recommended by that commission. I'm proud of that work, again, bipartisan, reaching across the aisle, working together, Democrat and Republican alike.

然后(那个委员会)提出了一系列的建议,我回忆一下,超过40条。我很高兴地说那个委员会建议的绝大多数改革都被写进了法律。我为那个工作而骄傲,再一次两党合作的工作,共同工作,不管是民主党人还是共和党人都一样。

So we have a long way to go in our intelligence services. We have to do a better job in human intelligence. And we've got to -- to make sure that we have people who are trained interrogators so that we don't ever torture a prisoner ever again.

所以我们在情报服务方面有很长的路要走。我们得在间谍情报方面做得更好。我们还需要——确保我们有人接受过审问的培训,这样我们不用再虐待囚犯。

(注:human intelligence,(人工的)间谍情报)

We have to make sure that our technological and intelligence capabilities are better. We have to work more closely with our allies. I know our allies, and I can work much more closely with them.

我们得确保我们的技术和情报能力更好。我们得和我们的盟友更紧密的合作。我了解我们的盟友,我能和他们更紧密地合作。

But I can tell you that I think America is safer today than it was on 9/11. But that doesn't mean that we don't have a long way to go.

我能告诉你们的是我认为今天美国已经比911时安全多了,但那不意味着我们前面没有多长的路可走。

And I'd like to remind you, also, as a result of those recommendations, we've probably had the largest reorganization of government since we established the Defense Department. And I think that those men and women in those agencies are doing a great job.

我还想提醒你们,由于那些建议,我们也许做了自从建立国防部以来对政府部门最大的重组。我认为那些(负责重组事务)部门的人做得非常好。

But we still have a long way to go before we can declare America safe, and that means doing a better job along our borders, as well.

但在我们可以宣称美国是安全的之前,我们还有很长的路要走。那意味着做出更好的边防。
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